Tamika Mallory

Speaker 1 (00:00):
And you Martinez in Real Life Podcast chapter one, We're
All Gonna Die. Mad killing happened today. They killed a
grandmother at a graduation and she wasn't even involved in
the fight. The kids start fighting and somehow the grandmother
got kids in New Orleans. Then well, this woman is
not dead, but the police they didn't shot up. Crazy.

(00:23):
What happens you get like alerts or people call you
or start So I've been telling people online I'm tired
and like I can't. I know everything every minute every day,
I can't. So people were sending me messages today like listen,
I know you said you're tired, but the ship is
going down, Like can you come back to work today?
Like we need to hear from you right away because

(00:44):
people are trying to organize, like which way? People don't
even know which thing to get, Like they like, do
we fight this violence? That violence over here? Over here?
They don't know, they don't they do not know, but
you I'm not and I'm not gonna be. That's why
I tell them. I feel like you say those words. No,
I haven't done anything all weekend. I swear I have

(01:04):
to stop because they won't. The things we deal with
it won't stop. The need is never so it's never
gonna go away. All right, sounds good? She might already good. Okay,
look good, baby, I feel good. I'm gonna blasting you know.
That's the other thing. It's like, God, it's just so good.
I'm he's really good too, especially when you're on when

(01:26):
you're on track, really doing exactly what we're supposed to
be doing. Have one of your quotes. I want to
start with today. All right, let's do it. I'm gonna
start our interview today to make a mallory. I'm so
happy or he can't believe that I'm so happy. I
worry about when we're just like I have a plan

(01:46):
to do something because something comes up every day every day,
so that could be somewhere that could easily be changed changed,
or can People who are close to me, who are
like real supporters of my family members and friends, they
know that then they had they've accepted it, and it's
like they encouraged me to take care of what I

(02:07):
have to take care. It's not my mother. She's like,
I don't give a damn to me, right, So I
want to start with a quote this interview with something
I saw in your book that it brought me right
to uh to this conversation today and I shared a
little bit with you about this series and this podcast

(02:27):
and this moment that I'm in and these conversations that
I want to have. Have you made up your mind
to keep it going forever? I don't know, No, I
really I don't know. I'm trying to be in the
moment with it. This might be the first project in
my life where I am really letting it happened. So
like when I saw you at the World event when

(02:48):
we were at we were at an event and it
hadn't even occurred to me to talk to you about it.
And then we sat down and started talking about even
talking talking about life. We've just talking. We were kicking
in about life, and you be like, is that weird?
Because if you do do that often with people? Are no, no,
my personal business? You like telling me? I was telling

(03:10):
you like, I mean, whatever it was, it required like
it's you. So I just gave you a real answer
to like I don't even know. And then we started
talking about what I've been dealing with. We were I
know what we were talking about, but that's not for today.
But we were talking about another one of our sisters
that has been going through some things and publicly and
now I said, oh, I know all about that, and

(03:31):
do you remember And I begin to you be like, yeah,
that was crazy what you went through talking about my
situation where I went through like a public disaster, and
then um, and then I told you about how dark
it got, you know, which I definitely wanted to get
into it today, which you're okay to talk about today too.
But then that led me to like, um, telling you

(03:52):
about this and at all naturally organically, like when you're
doing what you're supposed to be doing it and you're
in the right track, everything just kind of leads you there.
It's so weird. It's as an experiment for me, this
project anyway. So I want to start this with this
quote from your book, and you said, a walk of Uh,
the walk of activism is taxing physically, mentally, emotionally. The
things I witnessed in the chaos of this fight haunt me.

(04:16):
I live in a state of outrage physical sometimes emotional always.
When I read that, it haunted me a little bit
for you, because I think about you, and I think
about people like you who do this work, this this
work that we admire so much. But also it's so
interesting how you choose to walk through life, like in
this conversation that we're having about you know, the fact

(04:39):
that we're all going to die and that our time
here is limited. You choose your time here. I did
not choose this. I've tried to run from this how
many times. I don't believe it. Well, because my skills
are transferable, right, Like, so I don't have to be
an activist. I'm I'm I'm smart and well, not that
activists aren't. We're probably some of the most brilliant strategists

(05:01):
in the world. But I could take my skills to
corporate America. I could be an entertainment business. I could
be doing a million things. And I've tried several times
to walk away because, first of all, working within four
black and brown folks and the marginal lies like community
if you will, it's hard as hell, the most judgment,

(05:23):
the most challenge, and just the most pain because it's
just so much you gotta You're dealing with trauma every
single day, um, whether it's internal or external. And so
there have been times when I get really frustrated and
I'm like, you know what, this like I'm out, like
why why am I doing this to myself? And then
there it's like I don't even know how it happens.

(05:44):
It's just some sh it happens, and it's like next thing,
you know, I'm fully immersed in addressing it, and I'm like,
wait a minute, I said I was moving on to
a different thing. I've got like an interview and a conversation,
and it never I never can I never can't get out.
I can't get out. I can't get out because I'm
gonna challenge you on that. Though in the spirit of

(06:06):
life is fragile. We're a limited time here. We choose
how we wake up, and we use our time and
we use I feel like partially you're called I mean,
you are called when people, but you allow yourself somewhere
to be called do. But the thing is, you know,
there are a lot of people who are doing something
different than what they are actually supposed to be doing right,

(06:29):
And so I guess you're right in a way like
I'm I choose to walk in my purpose. But I'm
just saying that. I it's it's a it's turmoil for
me at times, and I don't feel like I'm making
the choice to shift. I feel like there is no choice.
Like it's a little different the way I see it.
There is no I have no other choice because this

(06:51):
is me. Yeah, you know what I'm saying. It's different
from me waking up and saying, oh, I could go
over here today or over here today. It's almost like,
if I don't do this, I die, like I failed
to live. What is that about? Like? How does that work?
How does so the work is? Obviously you don't need
to explain the importance of the word. And we know
it's gonna never end by the way, never, It's always

(07:14):
gonna be something to work on, something to make better.
But how does it serve you as a woman. So
my son's father was killed when my son was too
and before that it was my parents movement, and I
was in it because I was told I had to be.
It wasn't until my son's father was murdered that it
became my own. At that point I was like, whoa

(07:35):
wait a minute, Like what do you do with this?
And I tell you exactly what happened to me. I
never forget it was really dark he was killed. It
was just so much happening and I remember picking up
the phone, and you know how when someone dies, everybody
calls and everybody comes. So everybody was calling me, and
I kept hearing people say over and over again, well,
you know, your cousin so and so was shot or

(07:57):
such and such baby father also day it, and this one,
and it was so many stories that I was like,
wait a minute, I'm not by myself here. It's a
lot of people, like a lot of black men that
I heard about, and so I said, wait a minute,
this is like an American problem, but it's not in
the news. It's nowhere. Now. I had been involved in
the police brutality fight, I had been involved in like

(08:20):
housing issues. It was all kind of racism in America,
but it seemed that the issue of gun violence in
our community was super quiet, whether it be national media
and or people leaders, people weren't really focused on it.
And so now the calling was on me because I
was looking at my son, like, if I don't deal
with this, he's next. I have to get involved. And

(08:43):
that's kind of like how I found my way to
owning it, owning the movement. I think equipped with all
this that I wasn't listening to because I was running
away from home doing god knows what because I didn't
want to do it with my but but they were
always trying to set me up in the work because

(09:04):
they knew I needed it. And then when this thing
happened again, God aligning things exactly. So when my son's
father was gone, I'm like, WHOA. I think that God
was trying to tell me that this is important. So
I hoped that with Erica Ford, but you know very well,
very Angie Angie and at Mitchell and we started New

(09:29):
York City's crisis management system. And at the time, I
think we got the first five million dollars and now
it's like more than forty millions that's going to intervention
programs in New York City. I'm curious about the feelings
that you experienced though, because, like you said, you had
this loss and you turned it to to the work, right,

(09:50):
But is that to fulfill? Like um, is that you're
dealing with anger? Are you dealing with sadness? Trauma? It
was a it was processing. This is when I knew
I was distractors because I was like, wait a minute,
we have a problem and we got to find solutions.
I don't even know if I was ever like I was,

(10:12):
I don't have a time. I mean, you know, like
I'm not saying I don't feel, because certainly I feel,
and I don't really process my son's father's passing in
the right way. I processed this guy that I was
with for these years and he was my dude, and
this is my son's father and he's dead, and oh
my god, I can't believe it. And then I processed

(10:34):
what it meant in terms of his situation, the drug
addiction of the parents. They didn't get the help, he
got caught in the system. So that was, you know,
when I went into work mode. It wasn't until my
son got to be about fifteen or sixteen. My son
was too when his father was killed. So first of all,
let me give the names. My son's name is Tarik
and his father's name is Jason, and I was he was.

(10:56):
Tarik was two when Jason was killed. And so it's
took me until my son was about sixteen years old
to maybe fifteen fifteen to feel it. And the reason
why it was because my son boxed up against me
like mad about something. We was at it and I
was like, I would kill you, and I said to myself. Oh, ship,

(11:18):
I can't do anything else for this kid. Like I've
given him love, I've given him all the things, and
I could keep doing those things, but that next level
only his father can do it, or a man who
was a stable, committed person in his life. What was
he Obviously he was angry, he was just he was he. Oh.

(11:39):
I didn't know that, so I thought because my parents
were involved with his life and they were co parents,
and he had, you know, other figures, I thought he
was fine. I didn't find out until he was like
depressed as hell that he, even though he didn't know
his father, recognized that something was wrong. And the comparison
that he had angie from me. He he told me,

(12:02):
one day, you have your father. You don't even know
what it's like. You don't know what I'm going to.
That must have hurt. It broke me too into little pieces.
What broke me more year old. But what broke me
wasn't so much what he said. It was that I
hadn't paid attention. I thought I was doing all the things.
That's what I wonder about you, because sometimes and all

(12:25):
of anybody who is you know, career driven, successful or
whatever whatever you do sometimes we bury ourselves in the thing,
the chase that you know, and so I I wonder
for you and listen, the world benefits from what you've
buried yourself in. So there's nothing you know, we're grateful
to that. We love you for that, but just as

(12:46):
a woman like and when I think, and this is
something I've been thinking about a lot, which is what
prompted some of these conversations about like, because I'm always
chasing something. I want to be better, I want to
do something new, I want to challenge. And then it's like,
what if I only got him off left, don do
I want to be chasing with it? And what it's
like just taking a moment to kind of think and

(13:08):
be aware and present and choosing. I still think there's
things I want to chase, but being mindful and choosing
them specifically and strategically, not just running, not just because
we run, right and we chase. And I gotta imagine,
especially young Tomka, after that type of trauma and that
type of heartache, that you buried some of that pain

(13:30):
and I didn't the work. I didn't I didn't do
right by my son, period, that's the answer. Because you
were buried or just because I was working my ass
off and he knows it. He understands. We're good now.
Oh but he went through hell. And that's just the
if you if you study history, most leaders, especially in

(13:51):
this work, which is trauma filled work, will tell you
that if they could do it all over again, the
relationship with their children is the main thing that they
would go back and fix. So what would you have
them been more present? How? Not physically because physically I
was in and out. Mentally I was not always there
because some ship could be happening, like big things, and

(14:13):
my son's like mom, and I'm like, uh huh uh yeah,
I didn't even hear anything he said. Now, thank god.
My sister was always like even now their relationship, she
listens to him and then she's the one who taps
in with me like yo, you know that he and
I'm like, okay, shoot, thank you. You know. She always

(14:35):
has been my backup and I needed that. But it
hurt him, and then as he got older he began
to articulate it to me. But the way in which
he did it, which is where he and I have issues,
is like, bro, I don't give a damn if I
haven't been home you still going to do X y
Z that that teacher says, because you know, once he

(14:55):
got to an age when he figured out how to maneuver,
he was like, I'm I'm depressed. You know, you know,
no one has paid attention to me. But he really
did have valid feelings. However, I never forget this story.
So I was with this guy for eight years and
he was a great guy, loved my son, but just

(15:16):
was we just it was it was. It just was
time for us to separate. And when I was I
went to my son and my son knew him as dad.
We have been together all that time. So I went
to my son and I said, hey, you know, how
would you feel if we broke up? And he said, well,
I can see something that's going wrong here. He was
little too, and I said to him he must have

(15:39):
been ten, maybe eleven, And I said, you know, if
we break up, are you're gonna be okay? He said, Mom,
I'm with you. You know, whatever you want to do,
I'm with you. However it works. He said, I'll still
see Dad, but I'm with you. Fast forward till later
in life, he and I get into a big blow
up one day and my son turns around and says

(16:01):
to me, I've been with you through all your changes,
and I've never complained, not even once I've been with you.
I haven't said anything, even when I suffered and now
whatever it was, you all over me. And I still
was like, oh no, we're we're gonna stick on this point,
this about all that. But he was right. But he's

(16:25):
been with me through everything that I've been through, and
he has allowed me to be a family member at least.
I don't want to say mother, because I'm not aging myself,
but a family member to other families. And when I
wasn't necessarily being the best family member to him, that's

(16:48):
it's tough. Do you forgive yourself for the absolutely because
I can't control white supremacy. That's not you know, that's
not something. That's what it does. That's the point of
white supremacy. It breaks down families. It takes people mentally,
emotionally and physically away from where they should be, and
it takes away our happiness and our joy, which would

(17:08):
be me and my baby being together. It would actually
be me and my baby and whether or not things
worked out with his father and me, but it at
least would be his father being present. But because of
the society we live in and way this the way
the world is designed. It is set up to destroy,
to pick apart and to kill. And so the fact

(17:29):
that we still stand and shoot, we're doing real well here?
You know, how do you we're what is the payoff
for you? Right? Because like what I am very clear
that there is none. I'm very clear. I'm clear payoff.
I mean I guess the point is like what is

(17:51):
the benefit and how does it benefit? Mean? This is
your this is your one life, right, this is how
you're choosing to live it. I have to They say
woman needs seven streams of income in order to be successful.
I have to have five or six different things going
on to be able to answer that. The work that
I do every day, the activism work. I don't know,

(18:13):
because you take steps forward steps back, it hurts your
own people kick your ass, You get accused of stealing money,
being in a cloud chack, I mean everything you can
think of, the trolls that this to that. Yes, there
are great moments when people celebrate you, but there's a
lot of pain in it. You can't fix it. You

(18:33):
feel like you're not doing enough. There's always turmoil. But
there are other things that I do that give me
a sense of like hope, you know, and and another
things that I think I benefit from because it allows
me to exercise my mind, my friends, you know, my girls,
being able to help people. Those things. Yes, But in

(18:57):
terms of just being immersed in the work every single day,
I'm having anxiety attacks. So I don't figure it out. Well,
I mean, what are you gonna do? It's it's saying,
as with love, by the way, I benefit from the
work that you're doing many ways, just because the world
benefits from the work. From that way, I'm grateful, But
just as a human being, I worry for you about

(19:21):
it's the mental health of it all the But then
you know, my mental health, your mental health. Because you're
sitting there watching the news, seeing everything that's happening, watching inflation,
watching shootings and community and all the things, your mental
health is impacted as well. At least I'm actively engaged

(19:43):
in like something every day that makes me feel like
I'm doing whatever I can do, just like I'm you're
using your platform right, and my platform is being out
there feeding five hundred families in Buffalo, just you know,
days ago. Um I said, so, I sent you a
text and I said, so happy to see you. I
saw you in your cute little friending bathing suit, which,

(20:03):
by the way, you look super flu and I was
so I was. I was like, oh, she's on the
beach and her friendly baby, so she looks gorgeous. I
was like, I'm so happy for you that you have
some downtime. And your response was like I was trying.
But then they want to murder kids. They wanted the
murder baby. And I thought, yeah, because we were all

(20:25):
feeling it, but you can't even go lay on a
beach because you're activated, and you're not just feeling it
like we feel it. We're all sad, but you're activated. Well,
that was between these the elders and our black brothers
and sisters being slaughtered in a massacre in Buffalo this day,

(20:53):
and I'm like in the middle of it. I was
in um that weekend when you saw me. The reason
why I was in the baby even suit is because
it was in between things happening during Sabrina Fulton Trayvon
Martin's mother. She has a conference every year where she
brings together hundreds of mothers who lost their children. So

(21:13):
to violent situations. So I was at her conference in
Miami and happened. You know, it took some time to
hang out when there was nothing going on. So there's
trauma from Buffalo. Then I'm at a conference with women
who are coming up to me different you know what,
I'm helping them. I did two classes in the midst

(21:33):
of all of that, there's the killing of the children.
It's like, really too much. It's really too much for
all of us. So I'm just saying, people look at
my mental health and yes, sure I'm close to it,
I'm touching it. I'm with the families of doing things.
But all of our mental health, like each one of
us is dealing with something, whether we admit it, acknowledge it,

(21:54):
or know that it's there, but we're all going through it.
Like you, I don't know if you recogn as yourself,
like looking like you're in a place it's a lot
of people, You're like, yo, what's up? You know, like
you don't know because you don't know when people are
moving what that means that in itself, we shouldn't feel
like that at the grocery store and the airport or
someplace right now. It's too much it's too much. I

(22:19):
know it's too much. So at some point though to
make go, when does it become like like no, really,
because I want to understand what you went through and
I want people to understand because I think the people
look at you like the machine, which is why you
get you become the activist machine. And so she should
do everything perfectly and say everything perfectly, and she should
not be in a bikini or like how did you

(22:42):
know that? Okay? Good? Your comments okay good, but not
deleting but muting people on the IG line because they
bugged out. But I just want people to get to
know you a little bit, just as a human being. Man.
You are an activist, yes, but you are a human being.

(23:03):
Before there's some confusion because people so Dr Katon was
a preacher and he was a pastor, reverend excuse me,
a clergyman, a member of the clergy um and Reverend
Sharkton clergy, Reverend Jackson clergy also all men, but whatever,

(23:27):
and then they they had wives who were the wives
of clergy and women. And then I've had people say
I can't imagine Harriet laying on the beach. Well, Harriet
first wouldn't have social media, and also she was running
from the slave masters, so that's a whole different thing
and also give you some great right exactly so people,

(23:49):
but people studied that they saw those images pumped over
and over again, and so in their mind that's what
it's supposed to look like. They had not evolved to
a place where well, first of all, they don't understand
that I'm just not that, and that's okay, Like I'm
not Someone came on my pages and then said, I
can't you know, this doesn't look like whoever I'm like,

(24:11):
you have to find that person's page because that's who
they are. I'm actually not that. And guess what if
you go back and you go back to when I
start on Instagram, I've always been in the bikini or
hanging out having a good time with my friends. But
it doesn't stop me from doing the work that you've
got people that the skirt is all the way to
their ankle and you can't trust him as far as
you can see them. So which one you want? They

(24:34):
tell me, Oh, you wear We've I know some natural
hair chicks that are never step foot in the work
that I do everything. So instead of us worrying about
who has on what and whether you're in a bikini
or not, just focus on and my showing up where
I'm supposed to be and doing what I'm supposed to
do I guess to as a woman and as a
human being. I'm asking because I know you've been honest

(24:55):
and you've shared some of your story about just how
how dark it could get for you internally when you're home,
you're not doing the work, and the TV is off,
the phone is down, what are you dealing with? Like,
what is that moment for what today is different from yesterday?
So yesterday it looked like you know, me popping thirty

(25:16):
freaking between xanax and um and and percocets and whatever.
That's what it looked like. I mean, yeah, it was.
I was going through a really really dark moment. And
that was during the Women's march um which is like
this what you would think was so you would think
it was a high. It was it was a love

(25:38):
what it was a love? Well, first of all, because
white women can be very very very dangerous if they
haven't done the internal work right. So there's some white
women who have done the work, and they are very
clear that their tears and other end of their very

(25:59):
problematic ways in which they approach relationships with black women
specifically and black men. So they know and they're like,
I'm checking myself or I've got to be careful, right.
Even the ones that I worked with that have done
the work, still they're like, yo, I shouldn't have said that.

(26:22):
Those are my people. I'm close to them because they
know it and because we have those conversations. But imagine
that the Women's March was a combination of people who
have never done any work. They weren't even in the movement.
They just one day woke up and they were like,
oh my god, Trump is the worst thing that's ever happened.
He started racism, he started everything, like he's starting everything.

(26:46):
All women's rights are gonna be taken away all because
never happened before Trump. And so they started the Women's March.
These women together and we as women of color, black
women and others, Palestinian, Mexican, American, you have lend us
our sword, Carmen Perez. We all are getting involved here

(27:09):
with a bunch of people that you've never worked with.
You don't know if you can trust them. With some
of them, we couldn't. Others we've grown to be best
of friends with so here I And by the way
Carmen and Linda would have told you in two thousand
and seventeen, right, is that yeah have two thousand seventeen
that all of us were experiencing the same trauma and

(27:31):
it was all of us. And I sat back and
watched them be like, wait a bit it they really
hate black women more than anything. They thought that they
we were all going through the same stuff because they
are bruised as well, they have the trauma as well.
But they begin to realize that the way that I
was being targeted was very different from everyone else. And

(27:52):
it is because there's always been this particular, um, I
don't want to say relationship, but this tension between black
women and white women that's very, very very specific. Only
we have this relationship based upon us being enslaved. You
know what that looked like and the whole thing, which

(28:12):
we don't have to get into that. And so I
was targeted so much that what I ended up going
through was much worse. It was just much worse. Now
it's not Struggle Olympics, because what they suffered was also terrible,
but it was the way in which people were constantly
trying to tear me down. That it made me turn

(28:35):
to like what can I do to deal with being alone?
And you know, one one, not being able to sleep
one too many times turned into what can I take?
And the next thing, you know, and I thought I
had I had it under control. Listen. I just for
people who are out there who are taking pills and

(28:55):
they're at the beginning of this whole process and they
think I got it. You do not have it. There
is no control. It controls you. You cannot control it.
I learned that. I had a friend sit with me
one day and I was so you know, it was like, oh,
I'm sleeping, I feel so much better. And I was
telling her and she had just been released from prison,

(29:18):
and she said to me, are you taking percocets and
san x and all that? She said to Mika, it's
only a dark hole. There's no way you could go.
And I thought I had it. I said, oh no, no, no,
I'm gonna she said. I ended up calling her going
in the rehab. When did you know you were in
the dark hole when it was still like thirty pills
a day? Wow? Yeah, so you're taking them all day?

(29:41):
You weren't even taking them to sleep anymore. No, I
was taking them all day, no sleeping. It was I was.
I was nodding before the pills. You didn't when it
was twenty pills. You didn't think, oh no, because it's
not about that anymore. It's the need your body. Let
you know, at that point, you're addicted. So now you're
trying to not allow a feeling of like the withdrawal

(30:02):
to happen. So you're like all day long trying to
make sure that your body never experiences a moment of discomfort.
So there were times when I would stop taking them
for two days of like trying to take less and whatever.
But then it was I was crying, I was throwing up,
I was my stomach was hurting. It just was. It's

(30:25):
a mess. And Rachel Nordling is the one who took
me to a rehab. Wow, took me to rehab, dropped
me off. What did you do detox? Did you learn
anything about yourself? Well? I already knew I was strong
as hell. Like I went to rehab saying, Lord, I
need help with like I needed white people drugs. So
the funny thing is that Jason Williams the NBA Allstar.

(30:50):
He's the one that put me in so he has
one that he sent me to a particular place. Um,
he put me in there. Three times. I called him, Jason,
I'm in trouble. He called me back, Hey, you ready,
Oh yeah, I'm you know, I did all the bullshit
and saying I'm going and then go. Finally he so

(31:11):
the third time, Rachel and Jason got together and said
we have to make her go because at this point
I was like not going outside, you know, not really
wanting to be around people. I was so depressed. I mean,
I lost everything. One incident that happened with the Women's
March created a situation where all of my income was impacted.

(31:33):
For the first time in my life. I sent the
text message to a number of people asking for folks
to send money because I didn't have. UM. That had
never happened, so much so that people called to see
if I had been like my phone was taken over
by aliens or something, because they were like, this is
never like what is this? But I was in that

(31:54):
type of trouble. How long ago this was? This is
a two thousand nineteen, It's not that long. It wasn't
this is very rare. Every reason. I tell people all
the time and they're like, oh, you don't don't know. No,
I understand. I was in a very dire situation, um
and so uh so Jason he set me up to
go to rehab. And while I was there, it wasn't

(32:15):
so much that I learned a lot, Angie, But what
I will say is that I was at the bottom
right Like I'm in rehab, I'm like in a dark
room on these white people drugs because they don't give
black folks these types of drugs that just go to
the local detox program. You go through a lot of
suffering and whatnot. I know because I checked into it.

(32:38):
These programs. Even when you're in there, you're like, you're
see I went to the program and I was like
and then when I went to I'm like, uh, this
stuff you almost don't even feel. But then you have
to go home, and that's where the challenges. While you're
in there, it's it's painful, and it's dark, and it's
all of that, but it's when you have to start

(33:00):
coming down off of what they're treating you with that
numbs you and then you start to have to deal
with yourself that's the ship that I went through. It
wasn't so in the rehab yet. It was dark. I
was in the dark room and I was sitting there thinking,
how the hell did you, of all the people get
your behind in here? Like you can't ever come back?

(33:22):
And that was the main That was the conversation in
rehab was we will never ever be back here. But
when I got out, I had to. First of all,
I was physically weak. I was embarrassed. My parents now knew,
you know what I mean. My son knew. I had

(33:43):
to tell him because I didn't know what would happen
in rehab. So I had to let them know. And
that was when they first found out. It was even
going on just days before I went in. Um I was,
I was. I was just sick of myself, you know,
I was sick of myself. I don't know if this
is okay to ask. I guess I'm wondering if you
still had hope in those moments, because people who don't

(34:04):
have hope, they might they might consider no. I think
I was hoping that I went and wake up, but
I would never take my own life. However, I was
working on it. Like that's the volume of drugs that
I was taking. I was working on it, but not
admitting to myself that I was in the process of

(34:28):
killing me. Yeah, it was real dark. You weren't consciously
trying to commit suicide, but you were also like if
it happens, And it wasn't because of the you know
when I think about it and then try to tap
in the hone in on it. It wasn't the like, oh,

(34:49):
they took this from me, and they took that from me.
It was more so finding out who was really with
me when I was in a dark place. That's the
ship that really hurt, because then I learned that even
people I served and worked with wouldn't stand up for me.
And I was like, wow, like this is real, like

(35:10):
your bites, Why do you think God does that? I
don't thinking, Well, I tell you one thing, I'm as
strong as I've ever been. Okay, so then that's probably why.
So I guess that's the But he could have done
some other like you know, I had that. I used
to ask myself, like you could have I'm a smart girl.
I would have paid attention. You could get that's severe,

(35:32):
you know, situation, you know, But what we are strong
and kind of stubborn women, and maybe we wouldn't have
gotten whatever messages we were. But you know what, I
realized I was going to keep it to myself. I
was never gonna tell anybody. Nobody needed to know. Jason
wasn't gonna tell anybody. Still to today, I'm like, dude,
when you do an interview with me to talk about

(35:53):
how I got into program, He's like, yeah, we'll call me,
and then he didn't. I never you know, I don't
know if Jason he's not gonna talk about it. Rachel's
not gonna tell any Right, she's my friend. She's not
gonna tell anybody anything. So nobody really had My family
wouldn't know about would have known my family members, do
they Some of them will probably see this and be
like what, Like they had no idea because that's how
much people protect me within my family, right, So I

(36:16):
was never gonna talk about it. And then I realized
one day, this is not your story. This is God's story.
So how do you get to keep it? It's selfish
not to because there is somebody And by the way,
I've helped at least four people that are high profile
individuals deal with their issues since they found out about
mine drug or depression or both depression drugs, mostly drugs.

(36:42):
Three people with drugs and one person with just depression
that needed to go somewhere and get themselves together. What
is the another one thing to tell them? You don't
have it under control. You have to you gotta go
to somebody else to help you. You don't have an
under control. Everybody says that they start off. They tell
me they have it under control because we like to
be it makes us feel I don't know, nobody does.

(37:07):
I just wanted before we have a couple of things
that I ask everybody in these little conversations. I love
that you took a break by the way from I
saw your post. This is your post from the other day.
You took a trauma post break. Yeah, no posting of
people dying on my page. I can't take that. You
mean the actual like or just people send me pictures

(37:27):
of things that if you saw it, you would be like,
what is this? People send me pictures. I have video
of membrane from Buffalo that I'm not seen online. So
I'm just saying, like, people send me because all that
inside your little cute little body. But I don't really

(37:48):
watch it. It's like, as soon as I open and
I see things, I'm like, I don't watch videos. I'm
at the point now where I'm like, it doesn't even
make everybody knows it's all happening. Yes, it's bad, it's terrible,
it's shooting, this killing. It's just that the third there's
no reason for me to have to keep posting all
of that. What people need now is like what to do?
Where could they go? So if you the post that

(38:10):
you're talking about, I'm like, we have to support black
led organizations because I saw that Every Town UM which
is a white lead or at least yeah, it's white
left Bluebird started, it's white left gun violence prevention organization,
which I think they do great work. So I'm not
trying to say and I think they should have two
million or whatever has been raised for them over the weekend.

(38:33):
But then you look at like Live Free and Life Camp,
which is Erica and others who do this work, Black
lead UM gun violence organizations, they raised ten thousand, five
hundred five thousand, why like why? And by the way,
celebrities who are friends of ours are the ones pushing

(38:54):
because they're there, their management and the pr like half
of the time it was Memorial weekend. Most of the
people don't even know what God posted. They just are
like you did you know? They act checking with their team,
make sure we're out there on this issue. And then
it's like, oh, yeah, no, got it right, But not
enough of our celebrities are looking at well, which organization

(39:17):
are you pushing on my socials? You know, so people
like Erica and others like her and until freedom. To
be clear, let me make sure I say my own
organization we don't get the support, but others do. So
that that for me is a solution based conversation around

(39:38):
what can we do? I get that. It just struck
me because you said I keep wanting to post my
thoughts and a lot of things, but I'm not even
breathing normally. How do we get you breathing normally? You
gotta be able to like can do you have? Can
you who can? Like? Where do we start? Like? I mean,

(39:58):
like you gotta go to to like the forefathers or
something like this is this is? Do you think Let's
say I don't know how much time any of us have.
Let's say we can you maintain this for your whole life? No?
And I'm not going to. I have young mentees that
are badass. They they're bad than me. They're smart, and

(40:19):
they're ready, and one day I'm going to be like
chairman of something and you know, doing other business ventures. Hopefully,
hopefully I'm able to fulfill those dreams and they're going
to be leading. That won't be my problem, you know.
And I think that's the woman's touch. I think that's

(40:39):
the leadership, uh skill that women have that some of
our brethren don't necessarily possess clothing until being rooted. And Okay,
a couple of things. If today this is the Steve
Jobs quote that kind of inspire somewhat this conversation, If

(40:59):
today were the last day of your life, would you
want to do what you're about to do today? Yeah?
I was. I'm sitting here with you. This is a
big pleasure. Do you think that every day you live
that way? That you do what you want to do?
Every day? Yeah? I mean yeah, Yeah, I'm older now,

(41:20):
I'm about to turn forty two in days. It's a
whole new ballgame. You nobody tells me ship now like
it was in time when I was running around like
just trying to serve everybody and now no, no, no, no,
they know it too. My my team, They like, she
living her best life I've lived. I want people to

(41:42):
know I'm happy to have living my best life in
between working and mentoring and being there when they called me,
I have so many young people called me. They're like,
we should do this and this. I'm like doing it
can invite me. And I asked you how I support
you and your work? How do we support you? How

(42:04):
do what? Do you need a husband? Yeah, it's about
that you find him for you. And it's meanwhile, I
don't want one, but I want one, you know, I'm
not ready. What part of it do you want? Well,
you know, it's just time for me to have a

(42:24):
partner too. Just start building with you know what I mean,
like building, buying and figuring out life and and I'm
and I'm I have people around me that support everything
I do. That it's a different level of intimacy, you know.
And so it's time for that. It's time. Are you

(42:46):
making space? I'm not ready, but I'm getting ready. I'm
getting ready. I'm getting ready spiritually. How for it? How
important is love in the equation of you in your
full life? You know? How important is love that different
type of love like I mean not mean your child
and your family. I know, I know what romantic love. Yes,

(43:08):
it's time. It's time, Like you do you value that
or do you like? If I get it, I get it.
If I don't what, I'm fine. If it's gonna be problematic,
I'm good. If it's gonna be stress and drama and whatever,
I'm good. Like are you one of those women that
could live happy, live fine without it? But I'm ready
to try. Um, I need to try, she said, husband,

(43:34):
Like you know, I mean I can, I can call
you on any given Tuesday, like, yeah, I need you
to do this about this and I need that. Can
you make it? But the top ship is like can
you help me find my husband? I have that conversation
with many of my girlfriends. I know yet to fully
I make good suggestions. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, Like

(43:59):
this is yourself. Yeah I know, And there's a few prospects,
but you know, it's got to be able to keep up.
How they have to be able. They got to be
mature enough to know just what I said when we
started that Sometimes I just gotta go and then when

(44:19):
I'm gone, it's like a world. It's like, it's not
like I'm gone, but I'm on the phone with you
all day. I can't. I'm not that girl, right like,
and there's that girl, but I'm not her, and I'm like,
but you know, and I need to know that I
could trust you and we can still build even though
there's a lot of like movement and that's not easy

(44:42):
to find because something because people need what they need. Okay, um,
let me talk about the title of this one second
is uh, We're all gonna die. How does that thought
make you feel? Are you somebody who's afraid of death?
There's no way I couldn't do what I did. I
had to accept the long time ago death is very possible.

(45:02):
And only because this is being broadcasts. I won't tell
you what my biggest fear of how I could die,
because I do have that, Like, Lord, just don't let
it be this way. But otherwise I expect that at
any given moment, it could happen. You think about it.
I don't even think about it anymore now because to
think about it is to hesitate two moves, and I don't.

(45:26):
I can't now as I get older, though, the younger
people that work with me. I'm concerned for them more
like you shouldn't wait. Maybe because I'm getting older, you know,
so it's just natural. But the hesitation of we might die,
I don't have that as much as I used to. Do.
You have to figures you have the trauma of losing
someone you love and I almost died myself. So do

(45:50):
you worry about other people? Because I remember when I
like I have to have my car incident, I would
literally have pain in my chest with my mother. Would
be like I'm going to the store of getting in
the car, but mother in the car, my son in
the car. The trauma. Are worrying about my son a
lot too much? But yeah, no, but it's different because

(46:11):
although I think somebody may use him against me, you know,
so I worry about that when we will pray up
for him, yeah, well you know he's there. They have
prayer circles about my child. But I will say that
thank you for that. Um. Now that the elders were
shot at the grocery store, that Billy messed me up

(46:34):
because my parents that's their day. They go to the
grocery store. They go to the Dollar General. The Dollar
General is like a like an outing for my mom
and her friends, and to think that something like that
could happen even though we already know, but you don't know,
and we should never normalize it where we're like, oh no,

(46:56):
it's not okay. That does make me feel concerned. There
is so much happening that people don't even know like that.
Like I said, the emails, the text, the things that
I received with stories from around the nation of all
kinds of incidents, that, yeah, that does worry me because
I know how real it is. It's like at your house,

(47:18):
but you don't know it because you're living in this
bliss of your world and it's actually possible at any moment,
in any space, and it's getting closer and closer. And
cause you think the people in Buffalo thought that they
were going to shoot up the grocery store, Do you
think for one minute that children immigrant children for the

(47:39):
most part, I mean, I'm sure you know many of
them were born here, but still there were a lot
of immigrant families in the school in Texas. You think
they think they thought that another young man that looked
like them would come in there and shoot children, and
that the police would just let it happen. For over
an hour, no. So while you are here to make

(48:02):
a me, what can I do? No? What is your purpose?
I think that my purpose is to never allow the
behavior of like the disgusting behavior of this nation, to

(48:23):
go silently, just to let it happen without someone being
here to speak truth to power. I think when I
was in school as a kid, I used to talk
all the time, and my parents would be like you
and that mouth I used to hear all of the
yet mouth, we need to learn how to be quiet,
you know, And imagine like at that time, it was

(48:45):
I was a nuisance because I was talking at times
when I shouldn't have been. But maybe I should have
and maybe someone should have invested in me running my
mouth right, because look at me now, I run my
mouth for a living. And you know, now I realized
that that was actually the gift that God gave me,
was to say what others are afraid to say. And

(49:09):
here I am. You are. Do you think about your
legacy a lot? Like do you think about because we've
lost a lot of people, even in hip hop culture,
We've lost artists, and you know what, sometimes and maybe
I think about this type of stuff too much, but
like you know, we see people that we love, they
loved figures and they're gone, and we have two days
of Instagram posts and then it's there's maybe a year

(49:32):
later on the anniversary, there's opposed to to And then
I think about what what did they What did it mean?
What they worked so hard, they did all these things,
like what what does it mean? And so I wonder
for you, like what do you hope that your life
will mean? Well, I'm very clear that the afterlife is cool,

(49:52):
but it's the now, the here in it now that
makes your story. Like when you think about someone like
I don't know, O, I don't know anyway, there are
people that even you know, they don't have just two days,
They have a lot more um uh, not celebration, but
commemoration that happens around their lives and those those lives,

(50:16):
and that is because of the work that they've done,
the meaning there are meaningful work. I hope that I
am one that when I pass on, that the story
that people tell, that little dash between when I was
born and when I died, that it's one that's worthy

(50:36):
of uh, you know, great celebration. You know that it's
worthy of just kind words and continue feelings and of
people continuing the legacy building institution where things about what
I did and how I organized my books are used

(50:57):
to teach like that's really what I hope is that
they are a young activists and young leaders that say,
you know what, I like it where you could be
industry and have a bikini on at the same time.
Can I do that? Okay? So so no longer in
my box into this. I could be whatever it is
that I want to be. I could be gay, I

(51:18):
could be trans, I could be whatever it is. I
could be in a bikini. I could be I could
be a dancer, I could be a stripper. Doesn't mean
that I can't get up the next day and say, oh,
I care about black people, I care about brown people,
I care about injustice. That's my people. So when folks
say oh, and then I have to tell people when
they're like, oh, you shouldn't dress this way, you shouldn't

(51:40):
do this, I'm like, you actually think I'm talking to
the wrong audience. You haven't figured it out yet. You
think that I'm trying to appeal to you, and I'm not.
I'm looking for Ray Ryan, Kisha, street corners, strip clubs.
That's who I want to say she helped liberate be

(52:01):
that's my niche and every day it's a process, but
it's what I want to be remembered for. You've already
done enough. Yeah, you have to guess what they call
what have you done for me? Later? I mean, keep
doing it because it clearly fills you up, and you
clearly feel purpose in it, and you and we're grateful
for the work you do. But I'm just saying, if

(52:21):
you decided tomorrow to retire, you have done enough. Thank
you for saying that enough I feel it. I know
you don't, and I'm glad you do. You feel you've
done enough. I feel like you definitely have done enough.
I never feel like that. I always feel like like no,
if I if I felt like that, we wouldn't be

(52:42):
sitting here having this conversation sharing your story. Right. Is
there anything in your life you haven't done that you
want to do besides the husband? Is there a bucket
list item for you? Um? So, now, I think it's
all about traveling because I've done it. I've been to
the White House, I've been honored at the highest level. Listen,
Puff had me on the billboard. You know what I'm saying,

(53:05):
Like what are you gonna do like I've had I've
been honored by everybody in double a CP, you name it,
the community group, the Congressional black Hawk is everybody that
whether you want the time, one hundred most powerful people
and fortunes, fifty most influencial, I mean, everything you can

(53:28):
think of. I've had it. I've been honored by my
family friends. So now it's like, where do I go
that I can learn more and and put more in me?
That's what That's the bucket list. The bucket list is
about my personal development because I've done all I can
do in terms of proving that I care about the world,

(53:51):
but I haven't necessarily proved to myself how much I
love her? Are you working on that? That's my that's
my name thing. What do you ask God? Fix that?
You want to fix that? I think you have to
fix that, and I was gonna be good. I'm doing it.
It's a process, it's happening. It's a process. The proving

(54:13):
it doesn't mean that it hasn't begun and that I
don't understand it. Proving it is okay, So you so
we love me, Okay, we love her, show me and
I'm in that show her show time. What do you
ask God foremost my mom and dad to just live
peacefully and when their time is up to just let

(54:35):
it be peaceful and let them just know that we
appreciate them for everything they sacrifice to make us who
we are. It's all about me. The thing I say
to God every day is let them go out of
here with it in their heart that they put everything
they could. They came from the bottom, like you know

(54:58):
what I mean. They came from umble, humble, humble beginners.
My mom was in Alabama, my daddy was in North Carolina.
They came to New York with nothing, and they figured
it out. And look at their children. My sister has
three degrees, you know. My brother has a beautiful family.
My sister in North Carolina beautiful. And then there's me

(55:18):
that they all celebrate. They hold me up. Imagine two
people who had limited education that came here from the South,
the gym Crows South. That made it possible for us
to be in a situation where in that I could
stand in front of five million people around the world
and speak that's almost impossible, but I did it from

(55:41):
the projects in Harlem. Only Mommy and Daddy could make
that happen. They are just over the moon. But nonetheless
my mother is like, yeah, you cute, but you ain't
that cute. You show up for me at That's what
I pray for. God, help me have the means and

(56:05):
the mind to give them what they need. That's not
all about money, because they got their own money, so
it's not about that. It's about the being able to
think to help them keep you know, young and on
track because they're like, hey, I need you read these
papers with these things, and my dad's like what they say,
you know what I was supposed to do over here.
Want to keep them around, making them feel special and

(56:27):
making them feel loved. That's for me, that's the biggest thing. Beautiful,
Thank you baby, thank you. You're amazing. Thank you