Thinking Sideways: Disappearance of Sneha Philip

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Thinking Sideways. I don't know stories of things. We simply
don't know the answer to. Hello and welcome to Thinking
Sideways the podcast. I am Steve, as always joined by Joe,

(00:29):
and this week we are bringing you yet another mystery.
Well it's kind of what we do. It's super creepy mystery.
I wouldn't say creepy weird. It's a little weird, unlike
the kind of mysteries we usually do, which are totally
normal all the time. Yeah. Yeah, nothing to see here,
nothing to see here, move along please all right, Well,

(00:51):
today's story is about the disappearance of snee Huff Philip
and it was suggested by Linley on Facebook excellently when
this was initially suggested, it's a it's a really intriguing
story and really interesting. But I was initially hesitant to
to cover this story. Yeah, I mean, we had a

(01:13):
conversation as a team and I I actually had a
quite a long conversation with the folks on the Facebook group.
They they talked to me about it, and eventually they
convinced me that it was okay to go ahead and
cover it. About nine eleven issues, Well, yeah, that's exactly
it is. Because this story does deal with nine eleven,

(01:34):
and it's considered one of the you know, one of
the greatest tragedies or attacks in this country. Yes, you know,
it's it's something that is still sensitive fourteen years later.
So I'm going to preface the story by saying that
what we're going to talk about deals with nine eleven,
and it's it's pretty evolved in the events of September eleven,

(01:57):
two thousand one. We're not going to talk talk about
that as much. It's just bits of the story that
are going to touch on it. So if you're sensitive
about it for whatever reason, be aware of that. I
don't think our listeners are really all that sensitive, So
I think it's going to be it's there are people
who were involved that it is still a painful topic
to deal with, and so I just want to put

(02:19):
that out there. So let's let's go ahead and let's
start talking about our story. We're going to talk about
Sneah Philip Stee was born in nine in India, and
then with her family she moved to the United States.
She wanted to study medicine, and so she decided to

(02:40):
go to the Chicago School of Medicine and she started
there While she was there, she met a young man
named Ron Lieberman. She would eventually marry him five years later.
After they graduated, both of them land that he was
also a school a student at that same schools. He

(03:00):
was dreaming to be a doctors wanted to go into medicine.
They landed internships both in New York City. Ron had
his internship at the Jacoby Medical Center in the Bronx.
Snee Hawk got hers at the Cabrini Medical Center. So
they they're going to be doctors. They've got They moved

(03:22):
to New York. They get an apartment. All is well
and good. It sounds like they had a cool apartment
to right down the battery. Yeah, pretty sweet. Yeah, I
know it was. It's a great neighborhood. I did a
little I pulled the Joe, I did a little bit
of cruising around Google Maps. I know he's rubbing off
on us. So we're gonna go ahead and we're gonna
start our story. On the afternoon of September two thousand

(03:47):
and one, one left four work on that afternoon and
Sneehaw she had the day off, So according to what's available,
she was in the apartment for most of the day,
she had a conversation with her mom online that lasted
for two hours. Like Skype or like chatting. It was

(04:08):
a messenger. It was a messenger conversation. Yeah, I guess, yeah, yeah,
I think it was probably a o LL instant Messenger
Microsoft Messenger, since I forget what it would like in
those days. I don't know what it was like in
those days. I mean, I don't remember. I was. I
was a freshman, so I was kind of in the
thick of it, and I sometimes I forget. Just the

(04:29):
other day, I was thinking, Oh, what was the email
address I had before I had Gmail? Wasn't that long
ago that Gmail came into existence? Yes? It was. Well,
she so she has this, She has this two hour
conversation with her ally, and then she apparently decided to
go shopping. This is based on charges that are on

(04:52):
her husband's American Express card and security footage of her
which the security footage was found later. But she went
to a Century twenty one, which this particular store was
across the street from the World Trade Center. It's not
the movie theater, it's it's a it's a store. It's

(05:14):
it's a store. Because she she bought like bedding and shoes.
I think she bought lingerie to like it's a full
one department store. I've never heard of Century twenty one
before this, but but yeah, so she she did all
of this, and based on the time stamp when she
paid for all of her purchases with the American Express,

(05:37):
she finished up around six o'clock in the afternoon. Ron
her husband, says that he got home that night around midnight.
He'd had a long day at work. He gets home,
his wife's not there. But based on everything that I've
read from him, that wasn't totally out of the ordinary.

(05:59):
She was known to go out and then decide to
stay with family members, brother or a cousin or somebody
is big. It's hard to get around sometimes. Yeah, and
you know I can go here that's ten blocks away
rather than the thirty fifty blocks I gotta go home. Yeah. Absolutely,
So it wasn't abnormal. And he has said that, well,

(06:22):
I guess that. You know, he got home that night
and said, well, I guess that's something we got to
talk about again. Because the deal was between the pair
that she was supposed to call home and say, hey,
I'm staying away brother's house or I'm staying at so
and so's house. That makes sense to me. I think
that's fair. Yeah. Absolutely. Ron wakes up the next morning, September.

(06:46):
His wife's still not home, but he's got an eight
o'clock meeting. So he gets up and I think it's
six or six thirty. He's got to take the subway
to get to work. It's like an hour commune or something,
so he's got to go. She's not home. He goes
to work. Well, if you know anything about September eleven,

(07:06):
as of eight forty six am Eastern Standard time, that's
when American Airlines Flight eleven flew into the North Tower
of the World Trade Center, And to put it lightly,
that's when chaos ensued. I mean things, Yeah, things went
crazy after that. Ron he called sneak has several times

(07:30):
over the course of the day, but she never answers
home at the apartment or calling her cell phone. I
can't answer that, he doesn't say. I'm under the impression
that he was calling the house because she was supposed
to be at home, because she had both the tenth
and the eleventh off, so presumably he was expecting her

(07:51):
to have gone home. But I don't know that she
had a cell phone. Well, you know, she could have
been home, she could have had a cell phone. I
think the other thing to keep in mind is, because
it was September eleven, almost literally everybody in America was
calling almost literally anybody they knew in New York or
who might be in New York trying to get ahold
of them. Lines did get really clogged and did a

(08:14):
lot of calls just didn't go through. And if you know,
their homeline, they didn't have an answering machine or whatever.
He could have tried and tried and tried and not
realized that it wasn't connecting quite possibly, you know, or whatever. No, No,
that's that's a that's a very valid point. Well let's
see what So we're we're into the afternoon of September eleven.

(08:34):
He's at work that the hospital had been in huge
preparations for all of the wounded that we're going to
come in from the World Trade Center, which didn't actually happen.
So he gets he takes off from work, and what
does he do. He goes to the hospital that she
works at, which was on Staten Island, right, Yes it was.

(08:59):
And I'm guessing that his idea was that she must
have seen what was going on and said I got
to get to work, I've got to help. Yeah, a
lot of people did that in those professions. Absolutely, there's
an interesting not to you know, go too much into
the nine eleven situation. But you know Steve Bushemi the actor,
he was a firefighter before he was an actor. He

(09:20):
worked for the New York Fire Department. And he actually
like went back to his old fire station and geared
up and went in and was like saving people. That
was the thing everybody was doing, right Yea, even if
you had no training, you were they were jumping in
trying to help with Yeah, there's there were people running
and doing everything. Clearly reasonable for him to say, oh,
she's a caring person. She probably went to work because

(09:41):
she thought that it would be there, except she wasn't there. Okay,
So what he then decides, Okay, I'm going home, which
is the next logical course of action when you can't
find your wife and the city is literally in flames
and everything is going crazy. He I think what he

(10:01):
did is he he hopped a ride with an ambulance
that was heading towards the towers. Traffic was so bad.
I think it took him like six hours to get there. No,
he somehow managed. I think he burrowed or stole the
bike to get the last minute distance there. He gets
the apartment building, but he can't get in to the

(10:25):
building itself because the electricity is off and the automatic
locks on the door locked. So he's, you know, he's
trying to figure out what to do. He sees somebody
has a candle burning in a window, uses a flashlight,
gets their attention, gets that neighbor to open the window,
and shouts at him and says, can you go to

(10:46):
this apartment, knock on the doors or anybody home. That
person goes and nobody's there, comes back to the window
and says, nobody's there. At that point, Ron's got no choice.
He's got to find somewhere else to stay, and so
he went and he stayed with a friend that night.
The next morning or the next day, he comes home.

(11:08):
This is now the twelfth of September. He can get
into the building this time powers back on, So he
gets into the building. He goes to his apartment. He
walks in and nobody's there, And it's obvious that nobody's
been there because the windows had been left open, and
the apartment is full of soot, so it would be

(11:31):
very obvious somebody's home because there would be footprints. The
only footprints in the place are from their cats, two
little kittens who were obviously having a high old time
in the dust. Apparently they're probably a little hungry the
time he got home. Probably, so that is the end
of what we know officially about Sneeha. She was seen

(11:54):
on the tenth. As of the eleventh, nobody has seen her,
and as of the twelveth, we've got confirmation she's not whome.
Probably goes without saying. Ron, her husband and her family,
they go nuts. They want to find her. They're putting
flyers up all over the city. I think they printed

(12:16):
five thousand flyers with her name and information and photos
on it. They're plastering those all over. But of course
those kind of flyers are all over at that time
because people are trying to find everybody that they can't locate. Yeah.
Ron then sees, wait, there's reporters everywhere. I'm gonna go

(12:38):
talk to the reporters and I'm going to get their
help to get this story out there, to find my wife.
Except he quickly discovers that the reporters are not interested
as soon as they find out that she went missing
on the tenth. So he's kind of frustrated, and he
gets a bright idea. He calls snee Hans brother John,

(13:00):
and he says, hey, John talked to the reporters, but
don't tell him what day she went missing. As a
totally off topic aside, what kind of jerk parents are like, Okay, daughter,
we're going to name you. See you can beat John. Yeah, yeah,
she had a very traditional name. Come on, guy, I
don't know. I was wondering about that too. It's possible

(13:21):
that he was born in the US, he was younger
than her, and then possibly changed his name to John. Well, yeah,
I don't know what their ages are relative to each other.
I know she was born in India. He may have
been born in the States. It's hard to say. Or,
as Joe said, he may have just gone by John.
But sorry this well yeah, I know. But but the

(13:41):
thing is, the plan didn't go according to plan, because
as soon as John got on camera, he took the
story even farther and told the reporters that on the
morning of the eleventh, he was on the phone with
his sister when American Airlines eleven hit the tower, the

(14:03):
North Tower, and she said, I've got to go, I've
got to help, which is what a doctor would do.
And she hung up, and he said that was the
last time that he talked to her. Totally not true.
A little bit of embellishment there, but understandable. Genuinely not true, right, genuinely,
not just kidding. Well, later on he admitted it was

(14:25):
not true. But it backfired so badly it blew up
in their faces. Because, of course, the New York Police
Department won't do anything. I mean, they're inundated with a
whole mass of work to take care of now, but
they won't look into it because he said she was

(14:46):
she went to the towers. At the time, Ron had
filed a missing person's report forcedney Haw. There were nine
thousand missing person reports in New York after after everything happened,
one there was bad reporting in the police department. They
found out multiple people were listed multiple times, all this stuff,

(15:10):
and there was a few fraudulent cases of missing person reports,
but they didn't do anything because they just presumed that
she was in the tower. Yeah, I mean, not only fraudulent,
but also, you know, you have all of those people
who freak out there, you know, in Oregon and their
daughters in New York City, and the towers collapsed, and
they couldn't get ahold of her the three times they

(15:32):
called on the exact day, within you know, two hours,
even though they heard that the phones were jammed and
she must be dead somewhere. So she's you know, and
it turns out she calls him an hour later and said,
my mom, Dad, I'm I'm fine, And they just don't
bother to call and get her taken off. Yeah, it's understandable.
It's total panic. Oh god, yeah, I mean total panic mode.
I get why people do it it, but unfortunately it

(15:54):
made things so much harder for the NYPD. Oh yeah,
the family they know or they they believe at this
point that Snea is not in the ruins of the
North Tower or the South Tower. The family went ahead
and they hired a private investigator to try and figure

(16:17):
out all of Sneeha's actions on that day. On the
day of the tenth, they hired a guy by the
name of Ken Gallant. He was formerly of the FBI,
and he did he did a ton of legwork and
trying to find her, and he did. He found some
great stuff, but I was also a little surprised. He

(16:40):
recommended to the family who then flew this person in
from Pennsylvania a psychic, which question to me, it raised
a little bit of a red flag on him. But
but what he did find is he was able to
track down video footage of her. There are are two

(17:00):
different pieces of video of her from that day after
she left the apartment, one of which, as we talked
about just briefly before, is the video of her century
twenty one where she's shopping shot when when she's on
the video she's in the coat section trying on different coats.
There is also a video from the inside of the

(17:23):
apartment building's entry on the elevens not confirmed her right,
It is not confirmed her. What it is is the
sun is shining through the windows in the entry enough
that is bleaching out. According to what they what Gallant
and Ron are saying, to the point that they can't

(17:43):
get a lot of details. They see a woman. She's
got the same hairstyle, about the same build, appears to
be wearing kind of the same outfit, and has the
same mannerisms as Sneak huh, but they can't confirm arm that.
But this person, this woman walks up to the elevator,

(18:05):
pushes the button, waits a minute, and then turns around
and walks out of the building. The time stamp on
that video roughly corresponds to when the North Tower was hit,
So it's in a way it supports the idea that
she ran to the tower after everything happened. Yeah, except

(18:27):
it wasn't necessarily her because she wasn't carrying any bags
where she should have been carrying bags, So she she
still hadn't brought home all the stuff that she thought.
That is true if she had come straight from the store,
but we're talking well plus hours later, she might have
left them somewhere. I totally get where you're going with that, Joe,

(18:47):
Is that there's this piece where if she bought all
this stuff at Century one, where's it at? And this
person theoretically should be carrying those same articles that were
purchased thing. Well, unless you know, she was kind of
she was a young woman, right, she was in her twenties.
She was thirty one, I believe. Yeah, so you know,

(19:08):
you go out because she would have gone out right
if she had stayed at somebody's house. She probably was
out late. So you go out, you wake up next morning,
you're kind of hungover, and you just stay to your
brother or a friend who you see all the time.
You say, I'm gonna go home. You just I'll get
this stuff later from you next time I see you
or whatever. I'm just gonna walk home, try and clear

(19:28):
my mind or whatever. You make it back to your
apartment and you don't have bags. I mean, I think
that's totally reasonable. That's entirely plausible. Or maybe she was
buying it for a gift, or you know, there's a
lot of reasons she could not have that stuff. Yeah,
And as as far as her turning and leaving about
one that the plane hit the tower, it doesn't. That
also doesn't really point towards it being see how either,

(19:52):
But anybody, anybody hearing that, yeah, enormous noise would go
outside to see what it was. Yes, And so if
she hears that a normal stoys and she goes outside,
she sees what, gets an idea what's going on. Based
on her training, we can presume that she would have
run to assist. It seems like though that the investigator

(20:12):
and Ron how large a apartment complex. Are we talking
like thousands of people? Hundreds of people? Do you know?
It seems like the sort of thing you would circulate
and say, hey, is this you to rule other people out?
Here's here's the odd bit. The odd bit is that
the p I did all of his work and he

(20:32):
gave a report to Ron. Ron won't release that report.
So this this this footage of this woman in the
entry I I can't nobody's seen it. You can't see
the video, you can't see stills from it because he's
kind of under lock and key. It's that's odd because
it's not like he owns it. He paid for it,

(20:54):
so he still doesn't own it. Well, he doesn't own
the footage, but I'm sure that by the time all
this came out to the apartment building probably didn't have
the footage anymore. But again, this is another thing that
I'm going to call out as a red flag. This
stands out to me is a really odd bit of information. Yeah,

(21:15):
there there must have been something kind of bad in
that report. If he didn't want to release it would
lead me to think that, ye, let's let's keep moving
on down with the events were still moving kind of
a chronological order of what goes on with the story. Initially,
Snea was listed as one of the victims of the

(21:35):
World Trade Center collapse. There was, but because there was
no evidence to substantiate that in terms of nobody could
physically say they saw her go there and they didn't
find a body, she was removed from that list in
January of two thousand and four, and the law in
New York says that the date of a person's death

(21:58):
will be set at three is from the last time
they were seen alive when they go missing, which means
that officially, after she had been removed from the list,
her date of having died was September two thousand and four.
Ron appealed the decision. He tried to keep her on

(22:19):
the list, but there was another judge denied that appeal
in November of two thousand and five. That prevented him
from having access to the Victims Compensation Fund, which had
been set up to help people whose family members had
been killed, you know, for from a financial perspective. According

(22:42):
to to Ron, he wanted access to that fund because
he wanted to set up a memorial fund in his
wife's name. Here's the thing, She's a thirty one year
old woman who's going to be a doctor, very young,
high paid profession He stood together about three to four
million dollars. What the heck, I'd do it A happy

(23:05):
little chunk of money. That's a yeah, that's a that's
a sizeable bit of cash. Um. He never he never
got anything out of the victims compens or the Yeah,
victims Compensation fund in two thousand eight. A panel of
judges overturned the ruling in two thousand and five and
changed her official date of death back to September eleventh,

(23:29):
two thousand and one. But by that time, of course,
the fund had long since closed taking applications, so he
couldn't get anything from it. According to Ron, the money
didn't matter. What he wanted was his wife's name to
be recognized among the victims. So she is now officially
listed as one of the two thousand, seven hundred fifty

(23:54):
three people who died that day, not counting hijackers. This
is this is American citizens overly. Yeah. So so he
at least got her on that. There's an at the
memorial her name is listed. It's interesting that he said
that he just wanted her name on the list, even

(24:16):
though they got a private investigator and none of them
really believed that she was in the rebel Initially. I've
said it before and I'm gonna say it again. There's
a lot of flags in this story. Yeah, a lot
of things that I have to raise an eyebrow, and
I I have I had a listed home as I
was going through my research, like, wait, that didn't get
checked off? That didn't get checked off? This is circled

(24:37):
in red mark er. What's going on here? But we're
now going to take a bit of a turn in
our story. Okay, yep. So officially, the NYPD they think
that she died in the towers collapse kind of, after
everything settles down, they do their own investigation. The NYPD

(24:58):
in their investigation, they per sended some details about snee
Haw that aren't flattering, and her family does not like
and they constantly, constantly are denying and putting down. According
to the NYPD, she had a drinking problem and she
possibly was leading a double life. What's what's a drinking problem? Though?

(25:22):
I just I mean that sincerely. I mean that, for instance,
a woman of my age, technically, if you consume three
or more alcoholic beverages, a week, you over consume alcohol. Yeah,
I don't know a single person who drinks that's my
age that drinks that little. I just don't, you know,

(25:44):
And so I think it's be totally reasonable if I
went missing for some reason that, you know, the Portland
police could say, well, she did have a drinking problem,
because I drink way more than that, you know. So
I don't know. When they say things like that, I
have a hard time. I usually take it with a
pretty huge grain of salt because if they're like, well,
she was at the bar four times a week and

(26:04):
had a two shots every night, you know, like, well, okay,
that's people can do that and be totally reasonably healthy.
That it's very funny that you say that, because I've
I've always thought my fiance drinks cider or you know,
mixed drinks, but she'll have one or two a week.
And it always was weird to me when I would
go to the fridge and I'd grab a beer and

(26:26):
I'd say, hey, honey, you want to drink or something.
She said, no, I'm fine, And at first, well, yeah,
I got used to it. She doesn't doesn't drink that much.
But at first I was like, what's this is really weird.
I am not going to be really that funny if
you don't have any more to drink. Yeah, yeah, no,
I mean but I think that that's one of the
things we talked about that sometimes where people say or

(26:48):
the you know, investigation reveals quote unquote that this person
had a drinking problem, and I always just kind of
want to take that with a huge grain of salt.
Although it does appear that her drinking actually interfered with
their job at Cabrini. Yeah, well, we'll get into that,
but I just wanted to mention that for future past
and current mysteries. Yes, absolutely, good point the NYPD, this

(27:09):
is this is what one of the things that they're
using in their investigation to say that she's got that
problem that we're just talking about is she was told
in early two thousand and one that her contract her
internship with Cabrini would not be would not be renewed,
and the reasons were for tardiness and alcohol related issues. Okay,

(27:35):
that's fair, all right, Yeah, that that does lead you
to think maybe there is something going on. Now. She
did land their job, she got she got another internship
in internal medicine at St. Vincent's medical Center which was
on Staten Island, which is what Joe was kind of
talking about briefly earlier. She does seem like she was smart,
She had it together. She was a minority female, so

(27:58):
I mean, I'm honest to god facts. Well, you know,
I don't want to sound racist, but Indians are pretty
damned smart. She seemed to be very intelligent. Regardless of
her race or sex, she seemed to be intelligent. She
never had anything in her work reviews that I can
find saying that she did a poor job, other than

(28:22):
she had some personal issues, which, let's be honest, who
doesn't have personal issues? Yeah, but not all of us
bring it to work. Oh wait, are you saying I'm
bringing something to the podcast? Up? Crap? All right, Well,
we'll talk about my liquorice addiction later. Um. Not long
after she was let go from Cabrini let go, or
told she wasn't going to be renewed. I'm guessing it's

(28:45):
after she was no longer there. Read into that. How
are you want to after she was after she was
no longer there, she got into a bar fight or
a fight in a bar, I should say, admitted spending
the night in jail, which again we've kind of we've
rationalized a few things so far, so let's rationalize this.

(29:07):
Who hasn't found out they were getting fired or gotten
fired and said I'm going to the bar and I'm
drowning to my sorrows in a glass or seven? Who
hasn't done that? Why are you too looking at me
like that? I've never been fired been fired, So yeah,
I know it's not it's not a it's not a

(29:28):
good feeling. I'm young's there's still time. I've had very
few jobs that I quit, but I've had a lot
of jobs. Okay, well, we're gonna continue on with the
damning evidence here. Snee Hall also claimed that one night
while out with co workers, this is again out at
a bar, and I can't pin down whether what the

(29:51):
sex of this coworker is, but one of her coworkers
grabbed her inappropriately. I don't know what that means. Whether
it was a smack on the bottom or a grab
on the chest or attempt to kiss, I don't know.
In fairness, it shouldn't matter, but it does apparently in
this day and age, Yes it does. If somebody says

(30:13):
this person touched me inappropriately. That means that they felt
violated and it should be taken and reported as such.
But yeah, that's just my opinion. Man, I don't I'm
not sure that I would go actually go to the
police and and try to get the data to bring
charges against somebody who produced, which is what she did.
I guess I might if it were a thing that

(30:35):
had been happening a lot of time, you know, if
it were reoccurring, if it you know, if this person
was grabbing me and grabbing me and I kept saying like, hey,
I'm not into that. Hey I'm not interested. Hey, dude,
like calm down, back off, or or chick whatever, you know,
calm down, back off. All right, Seriously, I'm gonna like,
I'm gonna file a complaint next time. That maybe would
be the progression. But I would also mention that in

(30:57):
my report say this has been a pattern of behavior.
I wouldn't say this person touched me one time. But
did she has there any record that she ever ever
took the complaint to HR? The only the only record
that I have found is the report that she officially
filed with place. Well, you wouldn't report it to HR
if you were out after hours with co workers. It's

(31:18):
not a workplace incident at that. But I think what
Joe is getting at is if it was a workplace
incident like he like you were talking about, then it
would have been could it could have just been reoccurring
outside of the workplace. When you know, you go out
for drinks with coworker once a week or whatever, and
this guy or girl is always weird and attempting to
grab you. You wouldn't mention that to HR, there'd be

(31:40):
no reason to know. But HR can't do anything. If
somebody's grabby off the grounds, that's that's outside of their
their realm. They have no jurisdiction. But so she filed
this complaint finally she did, and the d a's office,
after reviewing it, dropped the charge and turned around owned
and they slapped on her a charge of filing a

(32:05):
false complaint or false report. And they said, you know,
if you want to admit that this is not really
what happened, will drop the charge against you. And she
stood her ground and said, no, I'm not going to
do that, and she landed herself in jail for another night.
That's kind of strange that they would lock up in
jail for a night because I I don't Again, this

(32:29):
is one of those things where I can't get a
hold of the court records and all I've got is
the family's accounting of it. But the point is, according
to the NYPD, once that all went down, so we've
got the night of the inappropriate grab and then she

(32:50):
gets in trouble for it all. She continued to go
out and drink, but she started frequency frequenting lesbian bars.
Makes sense to me, Well, there's I I don't think
that that really matters much. I mean, her family has said, well,
of course she went. This is where I get the
impression that the grabber was a dude. She was going

(33:13):
and hanging out bars that were full of women because
there's no guys there to repeat that scenario. But that yeah, yeah, yeah,
she feels safe around other women, so I'll just hang
out and drink here. Plus some of the better bars
in New York or lesbian bars, so you know, yeah, yeah,
I mean she she went to some they listened them

(33:33):
off and they seemed to be pretty well known. And
the report that I was reading never been to any
of those. I've hung out in lesbian bars. I've hung
out in gay bars. I mean it not in New York. No, No,
I would be happy to hang out in any bar
in New York. I still haven't been to New York.
I want to go to New York, and I still

(33:55):
haven't gotten to go to New York and hang out
for a while. This is the real intervention we're going
to have after the show out. Maybe we should have
done this show on location so you have an excuse
to go to New York. There we go sponsors this
at this point in our story, if we think back
to when there was that stuff about when she wouldn't

(34:18):
always come home and she would stay with family members,
it then comes out that what was happening was that
stee How was going out and then staying at the
homes of people that she met in the bar, specifically
at these gay bars. Ron rationalized it away and said, well, no,

(34:40):
there was a totally platonic thing. They would hang out
and talk, they would listen to music all night like
there was nothing sexual whatsoever going on here. And I
could see that. But I also have to ask, wait,
if she's suddenly hanging out, she's having such a good
time with all of these other women who are also

(35:01):
into women. Maybe she realizes, wait, I kind of really
like women. It would also help explain the kind of uh,
I don't know, symptoms of almost mental anguish that someone
might exhibit when they are realizing something large about themselves,
like perhaps questioning their sexuality. And there was she was
experiencing depression. Yeah, you know, you know you you maybe

(35:24):
drink more, you get in fights, you exhibit behavior problems
at work. When you're realizing that this person that you
thought you were this entire time, you become depressed, you're
no longer the person you thought you were. Particularly coming
from um an Indian background or a background that may
be less welcoming of I would just say it's a

(35:44):
very culturally rigid, I think a rigid um um. Do
you know what I'm getting out? I can't think of
the words here, but it's like you've got to hold
certain track. Yeah, of course, moray rigid, thank you. I
don't think it's quite as bad. It's like say Saudi Arabia.
Oh no, no no. And that's not to say that
like you know, Indians as a whole, right, It's like
just like you can't say Americans as a whole. What

(36:05):
some people are and some people aren't. And you know,
you never know what what background somebody comes from. There's
there's unfortunately more here. Of course, there's row mud on
on this poor woman. There, this this one. Her family
has fought tooth and nail and denied and denied, denied.
But according to the NYPD investigators, her brother John caught

(36:32):
his sister and his then girlfriend in bed together at
one point. Well, okay, And the fact that they've denied
it so hard, right, would maybe suggest that they weren't
okay with her being You know, I think if you
are a family that's okay with her being gay, you say, well,
maybe she was, she was, maybe she was experimenting. That

(36:52):
doesn't mean that she disappeared for any you know, other
kind of reason than she disappeared. Yeah, No, No, it's
it's you don't ye like that. Well, that's the thing
is that John has said He's like, uh, yeah, no,
I never said that. I never actually even talked to
the investigator who put that on paper. Have they found

(37:14):
the quote unquote girlfriend at the time. Uh yeah, that's
the mother of his child and they got married, right, yeah,
I got married. Did they talk to her again? Seems
like that'd be a pretty straightforward. This is the frustrating
part of the story that I've already said before, is
that so many of the players have been insulated and
kept away from the media and from people who are

(37:36):
asking questions. And the one person, the investigator who got
in there, we can't see what he found. So that
that that that's the part that drives me nuts there. Well,
maybe it's maybe it's such innocuous stuff, but they're just
so afraid to let anything come out. I don't know.

(37:56):
I don't either. But regardless the trouble she was having
when she was at Cabrini, that the tardiness and the
alcohol related issues that followed her to her new job.
One of the things that she had to do when
she was at St. Vincent's she had to meet with
a substance abuse counselor. She actually got suspended for missing

(38:18):
an appointment with that counselor. I wonder if they gave
her the job at St. Vincent's on condition that she
work on her problems. That could very well be it
that she would say, Hey, I got fired from my
other job because of these things, and I'm really wanted
to work on them, and you know, being up front, honest,
and they appreciated that, and they said, all right, well
if you do counseling, then will or she didn't hide

(38:40):
it and they called the other other place. They're like,
oh yeah, no, no, this is why we let her
go because you know, hospitals talked to each other. Yeah,
that guy killed like two dozen people. Oh yeah, we're
not going to hire that the angel of death. Yeah, yeah,
they're not. They're not going to do that. But but
I mean, regardless, it's so far the last ten fifteen

(39:03):
minutes has been super uplifting. Shall we get into theories? Um? Yeah,
why not? Theory number one, she ran away, that's a theory.
The circus not that the theory goes that she she
ran away from her life. She she wasn't happy. Is

(39:25):
we've kind of had a discussion here so far, is
that she wasn't happy and maybe the drinking and staying
out at night note without her husband may have been
a symptom of that, and the possible depression that we've
touched on briefly might have been another symptom of that
as well. Uh. There there there are bits that say

(39:46):
that the marriage wasn't all roses and things between the
couple weren't all great. I was gonna say, We've rationalized
a number of things so far, and one of the
things I can say is that I don't know any RelA,
aationship that is perfect, and people who say they have
a perfect relationship are in denial of something. I mean,

(40:07):
people are people, and there's always going to be some friction.
The other thing is I've talked about before with well
things seem to be good, is who's telling the story,
Ron and her family. So we have one source of
the information. The sheer coincidence of her deciding to run

(40:30):
away the day before the World Trade Center attack. It's
just too convenient for me, it's too perfect. Well, don't
you know it's not necessarily coincidence, though she might have
been planning on running away and then and then eleven
happens and she realizes, holy crap, I got a perfect excuse.

(40:52):
It doesn't even have to be a planning like a
you know, months in advanced situation. It could just be
she sees the thing happening and realizes I could disappear
true and it would explain right. They found all of
her stuff was still in the apartment. Everything you know,
your credit cards, her glasses, her ID or passport, her
driver's license and passports, everything was left behind. That well, okay,

(41:13):
I don't know why her driver's license would be left
behind if she was out drinking. But I can't see
how you would go shopping without your idea. You would
need your idea and credit cards. So I think it's
probably not true that they were left at the apartment.
But okay, fine, even if they were even all the
better to disappear if you have some cash that you
got who knows how, but you've got some cash and

(41:36):
you just walk away from your life. You have some cash,
you managed to get out someplace, and you know, I don't,
I don't know do something. I've obviously never tried to
plan a disappearance, So I would think that if you
were planning to take off, you would maybe do a
little noodling on the internet. Yeah, I think I help
change your identity and stuff like that if you were planning. Again,

(41:58):
Not that key part race that she wasn't just a
runaway of advantage, right, Yes, A great circumstances to take
advantage because of the the p I ken Glaude. He
said that he went through her or We've been told
that he went through her computer and found nothing in

(42:19):
her history on the computer to indicate that now she
might have been savvy enough to wipe her browser history
a different computer. Yeah, do it at work occasionally or
the library. Yeah, yeah, I mean there's there's ways that
it can be done, but but none of this stuff
is there. The thing, and I know that you're probably

(42:40):
gonna jump on me a little bit for this, Devin,
but the thing that she did that makes me think
that maybe she wasn't intending to leave is that she
had gone and spent the day with her mother several
days prior to that, and when she was with her mother,
she had said this was great, and why are we
doing this more often? Like this was a great day. Well,

(43:03):
that's that's one of the problems I have with this theory.
I don't think she ran away because it appears to
me that she was close to her family, and if
even if she had a rocky marriage, I don't think
she'd abandoned her family. But the other the other thing
is there's there's always a high bar for me and
this whole, this whole thing about people disappearing, it depends
on how much you're leaving behind, and she's spent years

(43:24):
and a lot of money getting a medical credential, which
she would be throwing away. Yeah, so that's why I
don't believe it. I agree with you, But I will
just say that people get sentimental when they're planning to leave, right, So,
you know, saying spending time with your mom and having
not done that a whole lot, and just saying, oh,
I just wish we would do this more often doesn't
necessarily mean also, I'm not planning to run away. But

(43:47):
I'm with Joe on this one. I don't think she
ran away, all right. Well, that then makes us go
to the next theory. The next theory is that, in fact,
she did die at the World Trade Center. Yeah. Like
I said before, the story of her running into the
World Trade Center was made up by her brother. There

(44:10):
is the footage of her in the apartment building entry
at about the time that the plane hit. That kind
of corroborates that maybe she did go and try and
help and she was killed by falling debris or somehow
got into the lobby of the building and was killed
when it was when it collapsed, or ran into the

(44:30):
south tower. I mean, you know, yeah, there were. There
was a couple of minutes in between, at least, right,
I don't I'm sorry, I don't remember. I was young,
but there was time in between. So if the one
tower is burning, you run into the other one to
help people evacuate from it, and then that gets hit. Yeah,
or I don't think she would have run into the
other one, because at the time, when there was only

(44:51):
one plane it smacked into the towers, everybody thought it
was an accident. It wasn't until the second plane hit
that everybody everybody started saying w T. Yeah, Yeah, that's
that's a very good point. There's also the possibility in
this theory that she did stay out somewhere else and
stayed at somebody else's house that night or somebody else's

(45:15):
place the night prior, and was walking home. So they
lived only a couple of blocks away from the World
Trade Center, So it's possible that she was an innocent
bystander when the first plane struck and got hit by
debris and then eventually buried when the tower came down

(45:40):
entirely or there. I'm sure there was a Starbucks in
the No, I mean genuinely there there were, there were
things in the tower too, right, So it's possible that
she just happened to be in there doing something on
her way home. The century twenty one was cross street,
and I've seen I will admit I didn't dive into

(46:03):
this because it didn't key in until just this moment.
Is that there were people that could stay across the
street from the World Trade Center. So maybe she stayed
over there somehow, And I don't know how that plays out.
I can't even begin to fathom how that plays out.
But maybe somehow then she comes out and then whatever

(46:24):
scenario happens happens. This is this is entirely possible as well.
And I think there are some good statistics to support
this theory as well. There are there actually there. They're
really disheartening. But but here's I'll lay at a couple
of bullet points. All of the two thousand, six hundred
and six people that were killed in the World Trade

(46:48):
Center collapse, so that's not counting people who were on
the planes, there were about sixteen, it was six. About
six people were never identified. The remains were never IDENTI
fun there are over ten thousand tissue and bone samples
that have been collected that haven't been identified, as in,

(47:12):
they haven't been matched to a known victim somebody that
was in the towers at the time, So that's a
huge number of people. The other thing is that the
City of New York has in their possession at to
this day about two thirds of the jewelry that was
collected from the site. When the fires were raging, it

(47:37):
was about it was over two thousand degrees in the rubble.
Most things like metal bands, like gold and silver, those
things are gonna melt, but diamonds and hard stone like
that would not. So those those items were found, and
some of them have been returned to family who have

(47:57):
been able to provide documentation saying yes, that was my
wife's diamond or my husband's diamond, or whatever the case
may be. That means that it's entirely possible that we
that they may be able to figure out that she
was in there based on the diamonds from her rings,
her earrings, and she had a necklace, so those things

(48:21):
could have survived the temperatures, and the family has provided
the documentation to the City of New York. But it's
really really difficult to to get confirmation of but it's
it's still possible, still possible that maybe I need, but
it's very tough. Well, that's the thing about it is

(48:42):
that there's only so many ways to cut a diamond,
and so matching up a diamond from one of her
pieces of jewelry was the diamonds that they find in there,
it's kind of conclusive, especially if it was you know,
a necklace set from k is right. How many women
have that necklace set from? You know? That's true coming
But yeah, certainly like the diamond from her engagement ring

(49:04):
should have been more distinctive, but that would require a
serial number somehow etched on it, which I don't think
they don't know. But but you get, I know about
a diamond. You nobody get angry at me for buying
a blood diamond, but about a diamond. And I got
the report on it, and it's got all a specifics

(49:25):
listed on it. But here's the thing. If that diamond
is then in a giant fire and is being hit
by rubble that is tons and tons of stuff, it
may not be recognizable to that report. Also they probably have.
This is super depressing, but probably there are thousands of diamonds.

(49:46):
I mean, even if you just say half of the
people that were killed in the World Trade Center attacks
where women that still is you know, over two thousand
people or sorry, over a thousand diamonds that could have
been found in the rubble. The fact that you can
think it's in the order of pieces of identifiable jewelry

(50:08):
and that's insane To ask them to look an examine
every single one of them and try and match it
to one. That's insanity. Yeah, no, I mean I'll look. Yeah.
It actually surprises me that some company that specializes in
diamonds this is a marketing pr bit. And this is

(50:31):
gonna sound disgusting as soon as I say it, but
for great publicities say we're going to donate our services
and we're going to document the characteristics of every stone
that they have, and then we're going to try and
match them to it. That's a great pit of pr
that's also a huge service to the families. But it's

(50:53):
companies do that stuff because well it's truistic, but it's
also great p off. Actually, if you if you just
took all the diamonds that you found it sort of
in my way and just say, okay, what are you
looking for? Were you looking for a one carrot diamond. Okay,
and here's the one carrot diamonds. Let's look, let's how
to look. See. I'm pretty sure that all of the
really obvious ones the very easy to identify. That that

(51:16):
third that were identified, they're probably easy to figure out
after that. The rest of them were just so nondescript.
You know, you've got one carrots and three quarter carrots
and all these little stones. At that point, it's a
needle in a haystack. But but I think we've belabored that.

(51:37):
I'm kind of doubting that she died that died in
the w TC because simply because she spent the night
with somebody, and she usually would stay with either her
cousin or a brother, and she didn't obviously stay with them,
so she stayed with somebody else. That person never came forward,
you're right, you know, and so and so she instantly
spent the night with somebody and forgotten left her bag.

(51:58):
So you think that that person, at some point or
another come forward and said, hey, she slept on my
couch that night, And that person never did. And that
actually leads us into our next set of theories, because
our next theory is actually split in half and that
theory's violently No. The next theory is that she was

(52:21):
kidnapped and or murdered, or how about sold into slavery. Yeah.
I didn't even go into that, Joe. I don't really
want to go into that, to be quite honest with you, sir.
Here's here's the thing we're going to talk about. The
century twenty one. There was a clerk there named Sonya Mora.

(52:41):
She came forward later on, I think it was weeks
or a month later, and she said that she saw
sney Huh shopping there, and she she knew her. She'd
been there many times. Yeah, she was a regular so
store close to her house, she probably, yeah. And she

(53:02):
said that she saw her with another woman shopping. She
said she saw her in the shoe section with this woman,
which unfortunately didn't have video surveillance, because evidently the shoes
aren't as important as the jackets section where there was
surveillance footage. It's harder to steal shoes than jackets, is it, really, Yeah,

(53:24):
you just put a jacket on and walk out like
you've been wearing it, shoes, like you have another pair
of shoes, or oftentimes they'll only put one shoe out
or uh, they only have the display size out and
then sitting there and very good point. Yeah, well, it
appears in the footage has found that she's by herself.

(53:47):
But according to this report, she was with another woman
who was described as small, dark skinned, possibly in her
thirties and possibly Indian. This woman, you know, she might
have been and she might have known Snea Hob but
she's never come forward. And and the lead ends right there.

(54:12):
And it could have been as simple as somebody that
she had met before at the store, could have been
a casual acquaintance who she bumped into. It could have
been some of these she didn't know and just sat
there and had a conversation about aren't they shoes great?
And the clerk immediately assumed that they knew each other
the same and they look kind of the same. Yes,

(54:33):
so there's there's all kinds of stuff. But if if
this is true, this woman never came forward, so we
don't we don't know anything about her. Well, yeah, and
I gotta tell you, I had a lot of random
thoughts and her ideas as I was going through this story.
And one thing that I've never been able to find,

(54:55):
it's a picture of her mother and we don't know
what's in the tense of their two hour online conversation.
I would imagine this would have come out in the
police report. But it's plausible. I mean, I'm I have
to wonder, did they say, let's go to the century.
It just seems unlikely that her mother, the mother of

(55:18):
a thirty something your old woman, would be described as
looking like she was in her thirties as well. Sorry,
there's all kinds of stereotypes for people saying I can't
tell one from the other. An age age is kind
of hard to tell sometimes. I mean, I know women
that I work with who are of Asian descent, and

(55:41):
you know, the first time I met her, I was like,
she's must be one in her mid thirties. No, she's
in her mid fifties. I mean, some people age differently,
that's true, but that would be a startling. I mean,
to look like you're the age that your child is
is very It's it's not I understand, I agree, but
I would say that it's highly unlikely. No, I will

(56:04):
not disagree with that, but I just I couldn't help
but think of that. The other The other thing is, though,
is it couldn't have been her mother, because her mother
would have said something, absolutely have something. I think in
a heartbeat she would have said something. Again, this is
one of those things that just popped into my head
and I had to ask. Yeah, it's it's hard to
say what a relationship, if anything, to this woman was,
And it's hard to say they were just like, you know,

(56:24):
two people who just chatted for thirty seconds, and it
could have been as simple as that. But let's move
to the other half of she was kidnapped slash murdered. Uh,
it's entirely possible that she was just the victim of
a random murder. She was known to go to a bar,

(56:44):
whether it was a bar that was of men and
women or women only, and have a drink or several drinks.
And it's possible that she sat down next to someone
female or male, who lured away from the bar, or
who randomly followed her home and attacked her. She could

(57:07):
have been unfaithful and went home with somebody who was
capable of murder. I mean, these things are entirely possible.
But the odd part of that is that her body
never showed up. And we've we've had a lot of
conversations recording this podcast about how hard it is to

(57:28):
really do a good job of hiding a body. It's
New York. It's full of dark, cubby holes where you
can stuff things that don't show up for years. I
get that, but most people who kill aren't that good
at thinking ahead, especially in a time when I mean
it seems like the city was being pretty scoured for bodies,

(57:50):
not you know, World Trades cent are notwithstanding there are
all those you know, nine thousand missing people reported. The
NYPD is going to go out and be like, all right, well,
I guess we'll check every dumpster today, you know, I
guess we'll check every Are you talking about checking every
dumpster in the city because of just no, well, I'm

(58:12):
not because of the terrorist attacks necessarily, but to help
try to determine if the people that were reported were
actually in the World Trade Centers or they you know,
we're drunk asleep on the court. You know, last time
I saw Joe, he was at jones E's bar and
he was talking to this ruffian and then I didn't
see him against So they're gonna go to Jones's bar

(58:33):
and they're going to rifle through the dumpster in the
back just to check. And I don't you know, that
just comes from what makes sense to me is that
that's how you whittle something like that down. That's how
you come up with the accurate number, is you prove
that the other people who you kind of pursue all
avenues of people being reported missing. So you're doing probably
more investigation than typical. You're going to run into bodies

(58:54):
more frequently, you would think, you would think. Yeah, But
also I can see the total sit they were stretched thin,
and it's totally possible that I actually have a feeling
that that is more accurate. They were stretched So but
you can also there are ways to get rid of bodies,
and there really are, there are, but not everybody knows

(59:16):
how to do that. And I get if this is true,
it's gonna be kind of a crime of opportunity rather
than a crime of planning. Crime of opportunity usually ends
up being messy and leaving all kinds of clues. Yeah, well,

(59:37):
it's certainly, you know what you would think that somebody,
if we wanted to say, murder her, would just have
murdered her and left the body to be found exactly.
But you know, supposing a murdered her statutes. The body
behind the bush goes away. And this is remember they
lived in the battery. They live very close to the water,
very close to the docks, and so you know, I go,
you go away, you find you find a bout of

(59:59):
change in way it's kind back, you know, and wait
to buy it down and just pitch her off a
pier and never be found again. I mean not for years. No, no, no,
I I totally get where you're going. It's just it
doesn't seem that likely to me. No, not really. I
mean that that that seems to in for a lot

(01:00:21):
of planning, and especially in the aftermath of the World
Trade Center events. Let's say, okay, let's just run down
that out that that rabbit hole for a minute. You
kill somebody and you got them, you got the body
in your apartment, and you're trying to figure out how
to get it to the docks. And then a plane

(01:00:44):
flies into a freaking building and the city is a zoo.
How are you going to sneak around with a body
rolled up in a rug? To use the the old
mob joke, I mean, that's that's really not as easy
to do because everybody's looking at everything. That's going on
and they're all wigged out, said, that would be the

(01:01:05):
one time you could just you could actually, you know,
throw a body over your shoulder in the fireman's carry
and and be going down the streets saying, oh my god,
she's hurt really bad. I got to get to the hospital.
You could do that. Yeah, observation that really creeps. It
might actually be a sher coincidence, and maybe she was
murdered and then and then stuffed in a dumpster at

(01:01:27):
the World Trade Center just by shier coincidence. Like keep
you know, trying to hold back from saying something like, well,
it's also not entirely impossible that she was lord and
murdered in the World Trades I mean the huge, huge
buildings with lots and lots of offices. If somebody were
you know, if she met somebody in that area and

(01:01:48):
they worked there and they said, all right, sweet, let's
go back to my you know, let's go to my
office and do the hanky panky, and one thing like
to another. I mean, it's not impossible. It's not probable,
but it's not impossible. And that's that's the hard part.
It's not impossible. Let's go to what I'm gonna say,

(01:02:10):
is a completely self made theory. Yeah. I have come
up with this all of my own because original content.
It's original content, because nobody else is putting this out there,
and I don't see this anywhere else. But I'm going
to say the last theory is that she was killed
by her husband. The NYPD did investigate Ron and as

(01:02:38):
I I've already said several times, all we know about
his wife is from him and her family. But the
NYPD looked into him and they ruled him out at
some point in their investigation. I don't know how. I
don't know what they had, but there's some there's there's
more red flags that are coming up. One red flag

(01:02:58):
is that there was a call made from their home
phone at four am on the eleventh to his cell phone.
He has explained that away as saying, well, I don't
remember doing it, but I must have got up in
the middle of the night and checked my voicemail. Now

(01:03:19):
I know a lot of people are saying, why would
you check your voicemail without your cell phone? Well it
was it was thearly two thousand's. Every phone companies were
charging you minutes for all usage. Call your voicemail that
counts against your minutes. So you know, I worked for
a cell phone company at that point. We used to
tell people check your voicemail from your own phone to

(01:03:41):
save your minutes. So that that's that's kind of understandable.
I can kind of get that. I can kind of
get it accept that. What the problem with that is
is that, you know, I'm trying to put myself back
into the year two thousand one. You would think you'd
be able to just look at his cell phone without
actually dialing anything and tell him telling you I thought

(01:04:06):
of that too, I'm not even. I can't even. I mean,
that's suddenly we're going to branch out into a thousand
eventualities if we started saying, well, maybe he was out
of battery, or maybe this was going on, or that
was maybe they were in a dead spot. I mean,
there's there's all kinds of things that I've I've kind
of held back from some of that. I guess I
will just say that I don't know about you guys,

(01:04:27):
but if I wake up in the middle of the
night worried about my significant other enough at least to
call my voicemail to be cognizant enough to call my
voicemail from my home phone to check my voicemail. I'm
gonna remember that the next morning. You would think, I'm
not gonna just be like, oh, I guess I might
have called my cell phone voicemail. He gonna remember. Some

(01:04:50):
people are different. Keep in mind, though, he got in
around midnight and he had to get up and leave
his house at like six or six thirty. So we're
talking four hours of sleep to then go back sleep
and sleep for a couple of I mean, I do,
I do that fairly regularly, I you know. But that's
and again it's just me, but most people I know,

(01:05:12):
I think we'll say things like I woke up in
the middle of I I was so worried about this person,
and then I went back to sleep, not even like
I got out of bed and went on the phone
and called my voicemail and remembered to not use my
cell phone and bla bla bla bah. Yeah. So for me,
that's a it's a red flag a little bit. But
the other thing is to I have a phone, she
have a cell phone. I don't know. Yeah, I don't

(01:05:34):
know if she had a cell of her own. I
haven't seen anything about that. Yeah, I haven't seen anything
about it either. I mean, and and in two thousand one,
I mean, cell phone usage was not nearly as ubiquitous
as it is today. No, it may have been that
he had splurged and got one, or maybe he had
one from work, but she didn't get one or didn't
qualify for one through work. I mean, there's yeah, I

(01:05:57):
mean not, it wasn't nearly as vlet let's let's go
on though. Here's the fact I've been holding back. Oh yeah,
I'm I'm a jerk like that. Yeah, yeah, I I
talked about a little bit that it wasn't all sunshine
and roses between them. Okay, do you remember that charge
that she filed that then backfired and ended up as

(01:06:20):
a charge against her. Okay, she had a court appointment
on the morning of the tenth for that charge. So
Ron had left the apartment to go to work at
like noon or one, but that morning they had gone
to court. He went with her, He went with her,
and you know, it didn't go well, and she she

(01:06:43):
pled not guilty, saying that she didn't do it. So,
of course, now she's got to face the whole litany
of the legal process. What I'm about to tell you, though,
as with so many other things in this story, that
the family is denying but the NYPD police report is saying,
is that the couple had a big fight or a

(01:07:05):
huge fight outside of the courtroom after the fact, and
Ron was really mad at her because she was abusing
drugs and alcohol and she was having sex with other
people bisexual, So either she was having sex with women
or she was having sex with men or both. I

(01:07:27):
don't know, But in that accounting, according to the NYPD,
she got angry and she stormed out of the courthouse
and she left. He denies, of course, Oh yeah, he
he says, that's not what happened at all. That that
that and under his recounting the whole thing, they had

(01:07:48):
lunch before he left to go to work. Correct. Correct, Yeah,
they had lunch and they went out for lunch. Correct.
Does anybody know what restaurants they went to? Is there
any way to back that up? Again? He didn't say.
My biggest gripe with his entire story is he didn't say,

(01:08:09):
and that's what's gonna lead us into the end of
this theory, which may make it us in trouble. And
made lights and fires. I don't know, but what what
if Ron killed her. He's the only person who has
said most of the information we've given, and he's the

(01:08:30):
only one who said that she wasn't home that night
of the tenth, And that's entirely possible. But let's flip
the tables. What if he wasn't home. What if he
was out late and she called his cell phone at
four am and he came to a very angry wife saying,

(01:08:54):
where the hell have you been? I mean, it's it's
completely possible. Or or she called him and said where
are you? And he was still angry from the morning,
came home drunk and angry, annoyed even more because she
had the gall to call him to see where he was.
And then something happened, whether intentional or not, something happened

(01:09:18):
and and she died from it. Or I mean, there's
there's also because again he censored everything. Maybe she was
having an affair with someone male or female. And by
the way, if you ever get on the forums, the
forums are lit up with the fact that she was
obviously having an affair because she was out not with
her husband, And I don't buy into that so much.

(01:09:40):
But let's say she was having an affair. Let's say
he knew she was having an affair and she got
home late or he got home late drunk, same scenario
plays out. They get into a fight because everything is brewing,
and suddenly she dies for what what ever happens, and

(01:10:02):
then he's forced to try and hide a body, and
it just happens to be that this city goes crazy
the next day and it, as Joe pointed out, maybe
that makes it easier to hide a body. I don't know.
I mean really, my point is is we only have

(01:10:24):
one source of information, and we we have railed against
that on so many stories before. I have to be honest,
this one is such a heart wrenching story that it
took me about five reads through everything before suddenly the
source stood out as possibly the suspect. And that's why

(01:10:47):
I think that most people have not pointed at Ron
because he is viewed as collateral damage. He's the victim. Yeah,
and either I'm right or wrong. I really hope I'm wrong,
but I kind of I I kind of doubt that
he has he killed her, but I think it's more

(01:11:08):
likely that somebody else killed or some random type of person.
And I don't know if Ron's seeing anyone. I haven't
seen anything. The last article about the story, I think
it's two years old, and which would make that ten
plus year ten twelve years later he's did and they
don't mention that. What you think they would if he

(01:11:30):
had finally met somebody again, And they don't say that,
which makes you think that maybe he really is the
victim in this story. Yeah, I think the thing about
it is is that when the last heard of Ron's Ron,
I don't know if they owned or rented that apartment
in the battery. I think they rented the rented it.
He gave up the apartment and moved in with her

(01:11:50):
parents and upstate New York. And the thing about it
is is that if he went ballistic on her one
night and wind up killing her accidentally or not, and
there almost certainly would have been a prior history of
domestic violence, and since she was so close to her family,
they wouldn't have known about it, and he probably wouldn't

(01:12:11):
be all that welcome in their home. It's hard, it's
always hard to tell what's domestic abuse. But yeah, maybe
I don't even want to speculate. Maybe she would have
kept it quiet. I don't know, and there's no obviously,
there's no reason to think that he was he was abusive.
I think, honestly, the best scenario in this is that
she was out late night, just crashed on someone's couch,

(01:12:33):
left her stuff there, came home, the buildings were collapsing,
and she thought, oh, I better go help, and then
died trying to rescue people. And that person didn't know
who she was, so they couldn't say I found your
wife's bags in my apartment when she crashed on my couch. Yeah.
Well yeah, but that's the other thing, that the bag

(01:12:53):
is going to have a receipt in it. No, it
isn't wallet. Yeah, I mean I how many times do
you get a receipt and you throw it in the
trash can as you look out of the store. I
never do that. I saw in the trash can. I
want to get home. I do it all the time.
I just asked for no receipt. But in those days,
you do, you would you always got to receipt. But

(01:13:15):
most people, as you know, I worked in retail about
that time, and nine times out of ten you would say,
do you went through a seat with you were in
the bag? And they would say with me, please, with me, please,
with me, please, and then that stuff in their pocket. Yeah,
or they stuck it in their wallet and then came
home and put it in there, you know, little ledger
or whatever. My parents did this stuff in the bag.

(01:13:37):
You know. I'm dealing with it when I get but yeah,
but but it may have been on her. But it's
but I I I have to say, and I understand
why the why the family wants to believe that she
heroically died in the trade center. And that's the Yeah,
that's that's what makes you feel better to fall asleep
at night. Yeah, I guess, sorry not to be labor

(01:13:59):
the point too much. In fairness, If it wasn't her
that was in the surveillance tape on the eleventh, she
could have been walking home, saw the plane crash, had
her bags, ran in with bags, dropped them or drop
them on the street or whatever. I'm sure that all
of the stuff that was left on the streets by
people trying to save people wasn't inventory super well yeah,
you know, and may have been or yeah, I was

(01:14:22):
just too trashed to really be worth saving. But but again,
the problem I had, the big hitch They have with
that story is that no one knows who she spent
the night with or where she spent the night at.
But again, come forward, I have got to admit that
I have met somebody and had too much to drink

(01:14:42):
and crashed on their couch and woke up in the
morning and they were still crashed out, and I went
where am I I gotta go? And it's not like
I met them and I gave him all the impertinent
details the night before. All I knew was my name
was Steve, and I was some silly look dude with
a goatee, and then I beat feet before they woke up.

(01:15:03):
In fairness, possibly there weren't posters of you posted around,
right that person would see that poster and think, oh,
that's that's that girl. Also, in fairness, you don't necessarily
go to the bar with bags full of comforters and
bedding and stuff. That's the other thing that's a little odd.
Think I don't know. There's I think there's just so
much odd with this story that there's not a good answer.

(01:15:24):
But I just I think that for my own peace
of mind, I want to believe that she she rushed
to help. She yeah, she died helping people, and I
want to believe that too. That's the way I want
to believe that, but I don't quite believe it. Yeah,
I have a hard time. There's so many other things.
But before we beliebor anything else and we go down
any other rabbit holes, we're going to call this one done.

(01:15:48):
So for anybody who wants to listen to any other
episodes we have, or read any of the links pertaining
to this story, you can find all of that on
our website, which just thinking Sideways podcast dot com. You
can find us on iTunes if you, and most people do.
But if you find us on iTunes, do please take

(01:16:09):
the time to subscribe, leave a comment and a rating,
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stop adding us. Find us on there. You can subscribe

(01:16:30):
through whatever podcast app you look use. We're on Facebook,
so we've got the Facebook page and the Facebook group
again this story. I had a great conversation on the
Facebook group a couple of months back, which is why
it's finally coming through because I was doing all the
back research on it. But those are the kind of

(01:16:50):
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(01:17:10):
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(01:17:33):
And I think that's all of the good information that
we need to give all of these good people, right guys, Yeah, okay,
Well another mysteries saw that we overlooked one possibility. Well
we did. Yeah, wow, Hello, let's staring you right in

(01:18:02):
the face, dude, always yeah, always staring at us in
the face. Well, okay, anyway, that's it, ladies and gentlemen.
It's been great. And wait with bated breath, next week
we have a big reveal. It's so good. It's gonna
be great. It's so good, it's gonna be great. But
we're not gonna tell you about it now. We're gonna
make you wait another seven days.