Thinking Sideways: Gary McKinnon

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Thinking Sideways. I don't know. I'm stories of things we
simply don't know the answer too. Hey, this is Steve
as always, I'm joined by and this is Thinking Sideways

(00:27):
the podcast. I know it's it's crazy, but it is.
And we've got another fairly unsolved mystery. I would say,
but wait, Joe, what's your patent? DeLine and I we're
gonna crack this one like a walnut. Yeah, I'm sorry,
I was. I was. I'm not on my top games. Yeah,
it's okay, that's all right. Before I get going into this,

(00:51):
this story is a listener suggestion and it's actually one
of the early suggestions that we got. But I've held
hold off because I kept going to it and then
coming back to it, really trying to wrap my head
around this story because it's it's a little a little hard,
it's outside of my wheelhouse. He did. Yeah, and our
like little spreadsheet of listener suggestions it said, you know,

(01:14):
Steve is doing the show, right, but like we've been
looking at it, you know, Dibbs, it like what a
year ago, and we've just been you know, sitting on
it and sitting on and waiting the government. That's why
we've been sitting on. Yeah, that check did not arrive
this month, so so you uncle Sam. Yeah, Well, regardless,
I do want to say thanks to Ed who emailed

(01:36):
this story in it it's actually an interesting one. And
what we're going to talk about is Gary McKinnon, and
he is Gary McKinnon, and his story is a little
hard to follow. But let's let's just kind of we'll
set it up and we'll do the best we can
with this because there's some there's a lot of UFOE
talking this just a little bit. Devin is very there's

(02:00):
a lot of like the whole story actually concerns more
legal stuff than actually well and I've proven some of
that out, so well, no, we don't need to go
through all of those legal travails. Now, well, let's let's
have quite a few of them. Yeah, but let's let's
just start here. So the story with Gary McKinnon starts
before eleven in this country happened, um were that is

(02:24):
correct in case any of our listeners are not aware
of a few months after the World Trade Centers were attacked.
UH strange meshes appears on some U. S. Army computers
and it says, quote, your security is crab I'm so
loo I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels unquote,

(02:48):
which really kind of bugged some people since everybody is
a little wigged out that we've had this giant uote
terrorist attack at that point and this case, you know,
mcannon was doing them a favored by letting them know how,
you know, and the military is historically their cybersecurity has sucked.
I sure hope they've cleaned up their acts. Hope so too.

(03:09):
And there I'm gonna let our listeners tell our listeners
about this really interesting book is called The Cuckoo's Egg
by a guy named Cliff Stole s t O l L.
And he was he was working I can't remember what
East Coast University he was at, but he discovered somebody
was getting into their system and he was he was
it was a Unix administrator. I believe it's been a
long time since I read the book, and that that

(03:30):
was that was in the old days of basically the
dark net, before we had the Internet, and so he
found he traced it and he found that this guy
was actually getting into their system through the computer system
at a military base that was not far away that
they were linked to. So he and so he was
able to buy tracing around. He actually trace this this person,
this hacker to Germany. He want he goes to the military.

(03:52):
He goes and meet with the base commander at this
base and and to tell him, hey, your computers are
being penetrated. People are looking at all your files. And
and the guy who was like a colonel said, so
what why should I care? That's that's forward at a
little better than that. I'm sure they have. And just
for clarity's sake, is Solo the like hacker name or

(04:14):
what that is? It's Solo is was the name that
was signed to the messages that were showing up in
the military's computer systems with with these little notes about
how terrible they were. Okay, so it's not him saying,
it's just me like I am right. He he had
an identity online and Solo, who was unknown at that point,

(04:35):
was continuing to scan thousands of US government machines, and,
as Joe had already alluded to, had found some really
huge flaws in the security of their systems. Between February
of two thousand and one and March of two thousand
and two, Solo broke into almost a hundred pieces in

(04:55):
the Army, Navy, Air Force, NASA, and the Department of Defense.
Solo surfed around evidently for a couple of months, copying
files and passwords, and at one point he supposedly and
this I couldn't find confirmation of this, but he supposedly
brought down the U. S. Armies entire Washington d C network,

(05:20):
taking out about two thousand computers, taking them offline for
three days. Now they say he did this by going
in and monkeying with files and deleting files. There's some
stuff where they say that he took out some defense
network like missile commands stuff, But again, this is all

(05:42):
listed in news reports. When I went digging to find
out exact records and transcripts of what the government says
he did, I couldn't find it. I was, you know,
I went to the n s A and all these
places trying to find anything, and they never mentioned this guy.
So it's evidently all covered up and Fred was formation
at don't seem to be uncovering exactly what they say

(06:04):
he did. Well, they probably don't want to get too
specific either. I'm sure. I'm sure now, So this all happens,
and at the time US Attorney Paul McNulty. He called
this the biggest military computer hack of all times. Is
in two thousand two. This is that they know of.
That's right, There's been plenty of other great, big ones

(06:27):
they don't even know about. Well, despite being so good
and hacking into their systems, Solo evidently wasn't so good
at covering his tracks because they relatively quickly figured out
who he was, and they traced him back in March
of two thousand two to who he was, and they
was a guy in the United Kingdom in London by

(06:50):
the name of Gary McKinnon. He's a thirty six year
old Scottish guy, and they sent the United Kingdom's National
High Tech Crime Unit to arrest him. Uh and UH
turns out that what he was doing is he didn't
have a job at the time, so he was bored,
so he was just surfing around on the net and
he was spending his days, as he says, indulging his

(07:13):
obsession with UFOs. Yeah, because he's convinced that there's all
sorts of alien technology out there that were hiding from
the people. When when he was first caught, he uh,
he was offered a chance for a plea bargain, you know,
do a couple of years and we'll just let you go.
And he refused to do that. He said he was

(07:35):
threatening to release the information that he had discovered in
order to get out. So basically, no, I've got a big,
bigger bargaining chip. The US government didn't think so, so
they continued to try to pursue him. Basically, they were
trying to extradite him to the States. Yeah, they it
was looking like it was it was going to happen,

(07:57):
but in actually the government put the knicks on that.
But let's get into the UFO stuff. Well yeah, yeah,
so he's he's thinking about UFOs, so that's that's his
reason for doing it. Oh McKinnon. Here he claims that
the UFOs were the main reason that he hacked into
their systems, and he was convinced that the US government

(08:18):
was hiding alien anti gravity technology and devices which he
was planning to find and uncover and release for the
benefit of humanity. Yeah. I just like, uh if okay,
if the United States of America has technology like anti

(08:40):
gravity devices, advanced energy weapons, et cetera, don't you think
it'd be harder to hack their systems? You would think
we would think also that we would have things like
floating battleships and you know, and high energy laser devices.
We do have all those things. Well, well I'm not
talking float, I mean battleships of float in the air,
and yeah, I know we have those things. They're just hidden.

(09:05):
That's what clouds are. Yeah, guess clouds are just battleships.
That actually, that would be it. That would be a
really really cool, badass system. Well haven't you seen what's
the Avengers? They they hide their floating ship and a
cloud constantly. I mean, that's that's kind of where they're going.
But but we're we're getting a little ahead of ourselves.
So here's a quote from McKinnon. He says, I knew

(09:27):
the government suppressed anti gravity UFO related technologies free energy
or what they call zero point energy. This should not
be kept hidden from the pult public when pensioners can't
pay their fuel bills. So he's got a very altruistic reason.
But he was still committing a crime because he was

(09:49):
hacking into a system. Evidently what happened is at one
point he had read and I've never heard of this book,
he had read the Hackers Handbook which evidently gave him
the basis of how to do all these hacks. And
he used the techniques that were in the book, and
he applied him to the US government system to gain

(10:09):
access and and he found serious access, obviously because he
kept getting in. So the question is, okay, well, if
he got all this access, what did he actually find find? What?
You know, there's got to be something that he thought
was such good bargaining chips. Well, one of the things
he found was an Excel spreadsheet, an Excel spreadsheet that

(10:32):
was titled non Terrestrial Officers. That he download the spreadsheet, No,
he didn't. He looked at it. He looked at it.
And there's some issues with why he did some of
the things he the way he did, but think that
he would have kept copies screen at least. Yeah. Well,
this the spreadsheet supposedly contained the names and ranks of

(10:54):
US Air Force personnel who weren't registered anywhere else, and
it contained information about ship ship transfers. But according to McKinnon,
those were the names of ships that he didn't find
listed anywhere else. Now was it names like Enterprise and Voyager? Yea? Anyway, Yeah,

(11:19):
well he Now the thing is when McKinnon says that
it's nontrestrial officers. When he when he uses that term,
you could instantly think, well, he think he's saying that
they're aliens. Well he's not saying that it's aliens or
that you know, it's it's humans and aliens working together.
He's saying that it's humans who are on non terrestrial

(11:42):
based ships, so they are in space. Yeah that makes sense, Yeah,
it does when you read into it that way. But
I mean, have we not all seen the true life
documentaries of Star Trek and Star Wars. Yeah, that's it's
that's absolutely true. And so yeah, I'm okay, Well, well

(12:03):
here's what happens is when his when he was detected,
when they found him, this is how they figured out
what was going on is McKinnon was downloading a photo
from NASA's Johnson Space Center of what he believed was
a UFO And according to McKinnon, and this is directly
from an interview, this is what he says. He says

(12:25):
a NASA photographic expert said that there was a building
eight at the Johnson Space Center where they regularly airbrushed
out images of UFOs from high resolution satellite images. I
logged onto NASA and was able to access this department.
They had huge high resolution images stored in their picture files,

(12:47):
and they had filtered and unfiltered or processed and unprocessed photos.
So this is this is what he's saying that you know,
he this is his his basis of this is what
I found, and this is obvious why it's really he
continues on my dial of fifty six K connection was
very slow trying to download one of these files. Yeah,

(13:09):
as this was happening, I had remote control of their desktop,
and by adjusting it to four bit color and low
screen resolution, I was able to briefly see one of
these pictures. It was a silvery cigar shaped object with
geodesic spheres on either side. There was no visible seams

(13:31):
or riveting, There was no reference to the size of
the object, and the picture was taken presumably by a
satellite looking down on it. The object didn't look man
made or anything like what we had created. Because I
was using a Java application, I could only get a
screenshot of the pictures. It didn't go into my temporary
internet files. And at my crowning moment, someone at NASA

(13:53):
discovered what I was doing and I was disconnected. I
don't know, but he got a screenshot of it. Should
it should be on his computer. All of all of
his computers, of course, were seized but and then not returned.
So he didn't like store a thumb drive or something
like that. No, he didn't make copies. Evidently he wasn't
didn't have the foresight for that right at that point.

(14:17):
Um possible it could have been a CD two thousand
one could have been. But that's a good point old
ZIP drive. Here's point. I don't want to poop poo
what Gary says he found, but I do have an
issue with the image that he says he saw when
he took it to a four bit resolution at low

(14:40):
resolution or four bit color at low resolution, that is
really really rough, you know. I mean you're talking only
four colors. That is hard to see anything at So
I question his descriptions of being silver in smooth and

(15:01):
not seeing rivets. Yeah there's no way, well yeah, that
kind of is. It's going to be near impossible to
see any kind of detail. Plus he's on such a
slow connection. I can understand. You know, it's like when
you know, back to ten fifteen years ago, when you're
waiting for an image to load and just line by
line showing up on your monitor and you're waiting, waiting

(15:22):
harder hard to remember those days when modems were so
much slower than they are today. Yes, it's it is.
It's hard to keep that in perspective. Yeah, So obviously,
as we said, he got busted in November of two.
Sorry that all he found. Well, he found the ship
to ship transfers, and he found the pature, and he
found the picture one low, grainy picture something. Those are

(15:43):
the things that he says he found. No, he didn't
say what kind of satellite photo it was, that it
was in a military spy satellite. He didn't say, yeah,
I've never found what kind of satellite. I don't think
he knows. He found it in a folder that said filtered,
none filtered, and that's all he found. And filtered could
have been as innocuous as they were filtering it to

(16:05):
adjust colors or something like that so that it was
accurate photos and not the grass is blue and the
brown buildings are red. It could have as simple as that,
but we don't know, but it could have been. But
he he gets busted and he was indicted by a
federal grand jury from this country, and that indictment contained

(16:26):
seven counts of computer related crime, each of which had
a up to ten year jail sentence attached to him. Wow,
so if he had got extradited into this country, he
potentially could have been locked up for seventy years. That's
that's something that the our federal prosecutors do a lot.

(16:47):
By the way, a little aside for the book, Well,
it throw it throw so many charges at you that
you reasonably and this is this is I think a
pretty troubling thing that they do these days. It's a
routine thing that's throw so many charges at you on
theory that well a reasonable jury will say, well, we're
not really sure, but you must be guilty of something,
so find I'm guilty of this one charge at least.

(17:08):
So you know that get you for something, even if
it's not the right, they are going to get you
for something. And it's like it's kind of appalling. Actually,
yeah it is. It's it's it's okay, okay. Well it
took ten years for this whole thing to be kind
of put to bed because he fought for ten years
extradition to the States. Yeah, um, gun is now the

(17:34):
UK finally decided that even though they had signed what
was called the Extradition Act two thousand three, which was
something that and I had to I had to go
straight to Wikipedia to kind of get this. It was
implemented in two thousand three, and it's an extra dy
extradition treaty with the US where the US did not

(17:57):
need to provide contestable evidence. In other words, they didn't
have to provide ironclad evidence. They could just say, we
have some evidence and we want to extradite you. So
they didn't have to prove guilt to extradite, to prove
guilt again, correct, They just had to say, you might
be guilty. Yeah, basically, yeah, we want to bring him

(18:18):
here to put him on trial to prove if he
really is guilty or not, which is a little that's
that's kind of a disconcerting treaty have in place. But
you know, everybody was panicked at that point, you know,
with the War on Terror's begun as as it was
called in this country, and so they were willing to
do whatever they quote unquote had to to keep everybody safe.

(18:39):
And I can see that this could take ten years.
I mean, just the argument of like him being a
citizen of Scotland right in the UK committing a crime
that is technically it's technically an international crime. It's a
computer crime. So like, was it committed in America and
that committed you know, committed against America certainly, but like

(19:03):
when yeah, I can totally see all those arguments crazy,
Very slowly it does. And and there was a lot
of of high ranking officials who had this on their
desk when they were elected in UH in England, who
just let it sit there and sit there until in
two thousand twelve it finally was addressed. Somebody's like, we

(19:26):
just got to take care of this. And what they
did is they finally decided that they weren't going to
extradite him because they believed that it was so likely
to cause McKinnon such mental hardship that the likelihood of
him doing harm to himself also known as suicide, was

(19:46):
too high a risk, and they said, no, we're not
going to do it. So they're worried about his you know,
his health and well being and figuring, well, if we
send him overseas, he's gonna do something pretty extreme to
himself before or wild there. I've got to remember that
next time I got they're trying to extradite me, I'm
gonna kill myself. Yeah, I don't know about that. Well,

(20:09):
here's the thing. One of the things that really helped
McKinnon with the extradition is that in two thousand eight,
somebody was watching interviews with him. There was a psychologist
who I think it was a psychiatrist or a psychologist
and I remember which one, same thing really essentially, who
was watching him and watching his behavior and got in

(20:32):
touch with him, brought him in and did tests and
figured out that he has as Burger's And I'm just
can somebody help me here explain what as Burgers is
because I'm not real good at this. It's like a
really like a socially adept version well as socially as

(20:52):
a dept as you can be of autism. People can
still have social interactions. It's not like so disconnected like
a lot of places on the autism scale are, but
it's still it's still out. It's like they describe it
as like a very mild autist just say high functioning version,
I think is the way I've seen it describe. But

(21:15):
folks who haven't tend to get very focused on things
which they used as an explanation of why Gary did
what he did. He just he focused in and he
just honed in. I guess I don't know after it's
really use Aspergers or really autism in general. But certainly
it's odd to me that you could use Asperger's as

(21:39):
as a defense on why a crime of any kind. Yeah,
I don't think so. I wouldn't. Well, all I know
is that it was one of the factors that they
took into consideration, and that helped his case certainly, to
take you know, a mental state into consideration, you know,
I mean, what was that, like the Snickers trial or whatever,

(21:59):
the fense, Yeah, the twinkie defense, like that you shot milk? Yeah, yeah,
like that worked. So obviously there's a president for like
things that don't actually totally fit and making them fit.
But that this one in particular is odd to me,
also just because they have a problem with what it

(22:20):
implies about people with Asberger's. Yeah, but you have a
point there, and and that's why I wanted help with this,
because I knew that I wasn'tna be able to hit
it on the head. And I don't think that we've
probably nailed it as accurately as we should. What you
don't If you don't know Asburg, just look exactly. Okay,

(22:40):
So that's that's scary. So let's talk about the theories
about what he might have actually found that would have
freaked the US government. So m and he was never
charged with anything. And he's a freeman right now. He's
a freeman. Yes, I think it's a freeman as long
as he doesn't set foot in the US. He doesn't
set foot in the US. And he cannot use a
computer that is connected to the internet. That is one

(23:01):
of the stipulations in the modern day. He's got, he's
walking around papers. He was on probation for a long
long time, always had to check in every night at
the police and then had to go home. But he
and he was a computer tech is what he did
for a living. And so now he cannot touch a

(23:23):
computer ever again that is on the internet. So and yeah,
that is really hard on in a world like this.
He's never going to hear this show when somebody else
downloads it for him. Yeah, maybe somebody'll download him put
it on his iPod for him. Yeah and if if,
if that's the case, Hi, Gary, but I can't even imagine.
All Right, well, let's let's do this. Let's go into

(23:45):
some of these theories. Now, I've kind of just sussed
this out to two sides of the story, two sides
of what he could have found, well, the things that
he could have found, or you know, what he couldn't
have found, essentially. But the problem is that this is
a bit of a rats nest. This could spin out.

(24:06):
I mean, this is one of those stories if we're
going to go into hidden technology or alien technology, it's
one of those ones that could just mushroom cloud out
on us. So I'm trying to keep it focused in
so while there's a lot of things that people say
he could have found, we're only going to kind of
focus on a small number. Um. So let's start off

(24:29):
with the first one, which is that, according to some people,
if it's real, McKinnon found proof that the U. S.
Government has been in contact with aliens for over fifty years.
There's some points from official records and government documents and
memoirs that are out there that people point to is

(24:51):
kind of the tip of the iceberg proving that this
is the case. And one of those is President Ronald
Reagan and his m wires, or his his diary and
his notes in in a there's a quote from his
personal diaries, which is out there. It's a book you
can buy. But he says, and this is this is

(25:11):
a line from it. It says, lunch with five top
space scientists. It was fascinating. Space truly is the last frontier,
and some of the developments there in astronomy, etcetera. Are
like science fiction, except they're real. I learned that our
shuttle capacity is such that we could orbit three people.
But that's that's a little ambiguous. That's a little ambiguous.

(25:34):
Excuse me is because here's here's the part that's screwy
with that at the time there were eight There are
space shuttles held a maximum of eight people, and we
had five of them, so that is forty people. So
where were the other two hundred and sixty going to go? Well,

(25:56):
you know, but the the statement that our shuttle capacity
is such that we could or with three hundred people
just means that we have enough shuttles and they can
go often enough that if we had a place to
put three hundred people in orbit, then that would be
kind of the max in terms of the shuttle bringing
him out there, taking them on, bringing supplies and spare
parts and everything else. That's more likely. What they were

(26:18):
saying is that and it's that impossible we had a
big space station. Yeah. I don't know, but according to
all of these people who are are considered military and
corporate whistleblowers, that's the phrase that I kept coming across.
They're saying that we've got a highly classified fleet of
aircraft carriers sized anti gravity vehicles that are currently operating

(26:44):
in outer space. Well, I want to say, first of all,
if that's true, that's awesome. That's really awesome. I really
want to believe that's true. So let's prove that this
is true. All right, Well we'll we'll try and do
that for you, Joe. Well, we just I mean, I
think we probably posted on Facebook. But in the last
month or so, there's been that huge development in um

(27:07):
propulsion systems for space, which is super interesting and also
one of those kind of weird like it's so defies
physics and so defies everything that the like how you know,
one could wonder how long have we actually had technology
like this, or like where is this technology? Very swiftly

(27:29):
in huge leaps and bounds, leading us. You know, And
I think that a lot of proponents of theories like
this kind of argue that this is technology that the
government has had for a long time and is like
really ready to do some stuff with, and you know,
the population at large is ready to see that stuff happen,
but that they're like trying to figure out a way

(27:50):
to like explain how like humans came up with it
by themselves, you know, complete with the Shatner weird hand
things that I was just doing. Yeah, yeah, that's that's
possible if they're trying to cover their tracks and cover
the UFO connection by slowly dribbling the technology out eventually
arriving at that if not alien technology, man, that's pretty

(28:11):
alien to what I experienced when I was a kid. Yeah. Well,
and and this is the thing is that, you know,
this is one of those things, these theories that McKinnon
points to to prove that, yes, we do have this
technology that's available to give us this free or basically
free or much cheaper and probably potentially cleaner energy sources

(28:33):
than what we're using right now. There's nothing cleaner than
the sun. Man. No, Well, you know, here's the here's
the other thing that I keep wondering about, Okay, well
let's let's look on the flip sides. So let's say, yeah, there,
we really do possess this technology, but what if that
technology to to operate it is super super dirty compared
to what we use now for propulsion of rockets and

(28:56):
cars and all of that. Like what if it requires
some crazy nuclear action that just makes goads a waste,
And then maybe that's why they're not releasing it because
it's so dirty. It's so bad that these these kind
of conspiracy theory things really assume that the people in

(29:16):
power are like pretty awful. They're nearious, yeah, you know,
and that's like widespread systematic problem. And I just don't
know enough people that are that awful, you know. I mean,
like so either there would be a really good reason,
like Steve says, right that like actually it's way worse,

(29:37):
and so they're keeping a secret until they can kind
of figure out if there's a way to alter it
or whatever, or we don't have it, I mean, you know.
And it's somehow I've become the naysayer on this episode
about aliens, But you know, it's this kind of assumption
of like super nefarious behavior terrible people. Well, you know, yeah,

(29:58):
and if it's if that's the case, if it's really dirty,
maybe that's why they're not using it. It's yeah, but
nobody ever says that. They say, it's obviously an example
that we have it and it's got to be super
clean because it's anti gravity. But you know, I mean,
we there's a lot of things that we think we
thought were super clean energy sources. I mean, nuclear is
an easy example. When it first came out, nuclear is

(30:21):
super clean, it's so cheap, and then we discovered it
actually makes a lot of bad stuff happen and potentially
can have some terrible ramifications can and not always necessarily
not always can. They're definitely careless. Back in the early
days exposed a lot of people are radiations fall out
that and nobody was aware. But anyways, the anti the

(30:43):
anti gravity thing, who knows, I mean, it might be
might not be dirty in the sense that it creates
a lot of waste or anything like that, or toxins,
and maybe it just makes people sort of come up.
Part of the seems again you pass through that anti
gravity field and explode. It's like the transporters and Star Trek.
They first figured them out and they would liquefy people. Yeah,

(31:04):
there's there's like a movie or TV show there's some
use of anti gravity. You know, they do the close
up of it and it's just like guzzling fuel and
like shooting out like black smoke in the atmosphere. But
like if the anti gravity, so we're using it, you know,
that's totally the sort of thing that people today would
totally do. You know, we would just ignore, totally would

(31:25):
ignore the fact that it would be like really awful
for the future generations because it's so cool, it's anti
gravity awesome. You know. Well, there's there's a trade off
there too. I mean, you guys have heard of the
space elevator for example, right, That's one of the big
problems with that is the cost of transporting all the
materials necessary to build this thing into or but which
would be vast. But once you've got that there and

(31:46):
you've got space elevator going space travel is they're cheap.
So that'd be a great use of It's like, Okay,
we're gonna dirt the environment a little bit, but we're
gonna use this anti gravity platform to put all that
stuff out there. Just this one time you know, build up,
build elevator and famous last words, and that will will
use it to put like about fifty nuclear warheads in
orbit and then but perfect, yeah, we are, sorry, we are.

(32:13):
But well let's let's go to the next thing, which
is do you remember when I talked about the ship
to ship or the non terrestrial officers with the ship
to ship transports, Okay, and we talked about the Avengers ship.
So this is that aircraft carrier size ship floating in space.
Well there's actually think it's the Shield spacecraft, but that's

(32:35):
just the antics. Sorry, Yeah, thank you for I think
I'd like to think it's like that that really enormous
Romulan ship from the two Star Trek movie. Remember the
first Star Trek movie that recently came out. Huh yeah, yeah,
that thing that was about the size of Manhattan. Yeah,
I think that'd be cool. Okay, Steeve, I really just
didn't want you to be embarrassing yourself. Well I appreciate
that because you know, I'm only a little bit of

(32:55):
a comic nerds, so this way you're correcting me on
my bad usage. When we started talking about e walks,
really watch out because I get them all mixed up walk. Okay,
well back to these ships. So the proponents of this
theory that there is that anti gravity technology and that
we really do have ships up in space point to

(33:19):
a couple of things, and these things are really really unconfirmed.
In other words, I tried to find I've seen mention
of it, but I've never found anything that where these
this information came from. It just mysteriously appears on the Internet.
But here's what it is. From those transfer logs, people

(33:41):
say the mckinnons saw the names of two ships. One
is the U S. S. S. LeMay, bear with me,
and the U S S S. Hill and Koder. I
believe that's how you pronounce. I'm not sure. Okay, now
here's here's I know where your confusion is. U S

(34:04):
S S three essay, Yes, it's normally it's a United
States ship is two S S. United States spaceship is
where the third S is coming from? In this is that?
But because they should have called him USSR for the
United States Space Rocket. Well I'm just thinking about you

(34:25):
know again, going back to the like you know, of
course the documentary of the Enterprise, it was just the U. S. S. Enterprise. Yeah,
that was like the United Spaceship or something something. Yeah,
I don't know. I guess at that point, right, it
wasn't like the United States. It was like the world. Yeah, okay, okay,

(34:46):
all right, I'm there. Okay, Well, yes, the U s S.
So we've got the LAMAI and the hill Encoder as
I'm calling it because I don't know the exact pronunciation. Well,
there's actually some history on both of those names. Really,
there's General Curtis LeMay, who was and this is this
is the whole story here on him is he was

(35:07):
friends with a retired Air Force reserved major general and
former Senator from Arizona, Barry Goldwater. Goldwater believed that there
was a UFO cover up in the government, and he
suspected that LeMay knew about it, and there there was
supposedly evidence that there was some room in right Patterson

(35:32):
Air Force Base called the Blue Room, which was supposed
to contain all the secret UFO information. Goldwater told the
media several times that he had asked LeMay about this
room and lead got really upset and said, not only
can't you get into it, but don't you ever mention
it to me again. I just feel like a U. S.
Senator from Arizona. Where where is Ohio Senior? Dayton? Never mind,

(35:56):
I was gonna say, the U. S. Senator of the state,
and which how's you would you would at least think,
you know, the general would be like listen, dude, chill, Yeah,
you can't talk about it. But but you know, the
thing is is this this was back, you know, in
the forties and fifties supposedly when this happened, or maybe
it was the sixties. I can't remember the exact date

(36:19):
at the moment, but this is during a time when
we have Cold War going on, So that might have
been a room that held secrets, not about the Russians
or somebody else. Or it could also just be as
simple as LeMay was really sick and tired and fed
up with all this UFO he kept hearing about the

(36:40):
people kept pestering about him. That he was just exasperated.
He said, Hey, I don't want to hear about UFOs anymore.
But if if he was the guy who was who
knew about that and somehow had control, that would explain
why one of the ships his name LeMay. We go
to the other one, the second ship, there is a
man by the name of Admiral Roscoe Hill Encoder, and
he was the first director of the CIA, And he

(37:03):
was also a member of a UFO research organization, the
National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomenon. When was that a
thing that was in the fifties, because in nineteen sixty
the New York Times reported that he had sent a
letter to Congress indicating this the following statement. Behind the scenes,

(37:27):
high ranking Air Force officers are soberly concerned with UFOs,
but through official secrecy and ridicule, many citizens are being
led to believe that these flying flying objects are nonsense. Okay,
we've talked about this before, and I'm just going to
talk about it again real quick. We always assume that
UFO refers to something that is extraterrestrial, right, but it's

(37:52):
actually just something that just means that it's identified. And
like the government has come out and said, yeah, we
test prototype planes all the time. Are you kidding me?
Their stealth operations were developing these things were not. Of course,
we're not going to just like come out and be like, hey,
general public, just so you know, we got a brand
new prototype of something we're going to try out. We

(38:12):
spent millions of dollars on it and we might crash it.
But that's gonna be cool. You might see it flying around.
Of course they're not going to say that, so you know,
in order to say like a UFO at any level
and rant and also you know, I mean if they would,
they would have to investigate these things like say if
if if somebody's spotting something flying around, especially during the

(38:35):
Cold War, Yeah, you want to find out if maybe
Russia has you know, actually you know, flying spyplanes over
some stuff. You want to look into it. That makes sense, Yeah,
it totally does. But that's that's why people say there's
significance to those two names being the names of these ships.
It's also the fact that it then leads into what
is known as the Majestic twelve. Sounds like, yeah, but

(38:59):
before we delve into that. So, so McKinnon is the
one who came up with the names of these two ships, right,
He's he's the one who reported seeing these in the
success spreads. Supposedly he saw these names on the spreadsheets. Yes,
but that is completely unconfirmed. I've never seen any official
thing from him. In quotes, these are the names that

(39:20):
I saw, So it might be something that somebody dovetailed
in that they're pretty obscure references, at least the LAMA. Well,
I think that they tie into this Majestic twelve bit, though,
is what the problem is. And I think that's I
think that it's one built on the other. And again
I'm not saying that it was dovetailed in and that

(39:42):
McKinnon didn't say this, but I can't prove it. So
this is I've just got to lay the facts and say, well,
I can see how a fits to be fits to
see and that's unsolved mystery solving. Yeah, yeah, I mean
that's you know, I'm just trying to deduce what's going on.
So that's that's my best. So here's what the Majestic twelve.
The Majestic twelve is alleged to have been the code

(40:04):
name of a secret committee of scientists, military leaders, and
government officials formed in seven by an executive order from
Harry S. Truman, who was president at the time, and
the purpose of this committee was stated as being the
investigation of the reports of flying saucer sightings that had

(40:27):
been received by the U. S. Military intelligence, and in particular,
they were looking at the possible um the physics and
the technology that would be required for that kind of propulsion.
So they're looking into Okay, well, we're scientists, so if
somebody says it did this, can we figure out how
that might have happened? And that's kind of a simplification

(40:51):
of what it is, kind of kind of But here's
the thing is this was formed in forty seven in
and what really really sets off a lot of people
is that it was June or was it July of
seven that the roswell incident happened, So this is the

(41:13):
same year. So this just lights a fire under people
to make that connection. But yeah, other than that, it's hard.
Nobody knows what Majestic twelve was all about. Actually, yeah,
and here's the funny thing is um Helen Cotter he
if you remember, I had said that he had put
out that that memo in nineteen sixty about we need

(41:33):
to we need to be more transparent about these things.
All of the sudden, at one point he just stopped,
stopped talking about UFOs. He went dead silent on the topic.
So then people figure, well, that must be about the
time that he was inducted into the Majestic twelve. Inducted
into the secret you know, the secret government organization that's

(41:57):
dealing with UFOs. It may us we think of um
that Will Smith movie was what was the one where
the aliens came and he uh flew the alien ship
up at their Yeah, it makes me think of Independence
Day when you know they suddenly they're there with the
president and there an area forty one and nobody knew
that this really existed, kept its secret because you wanted

(42:21):
to have plausible deniability. I mean, this, this is this
is pervasive and it's a it's a topic or behavior
that we've seen in a lot of things, but I
don't know if it's real or not, but people just
really grab onto it. Yeah. I always just it's like,
you know, I have no idea, but probably not. Yes,
I always think of the Futurama episode about Roswell, whenever

(42:45):
we talked about Roswell, and I don't remember that. I don't. Oh.
They accidentally time travel back into the past and it
turns out that the Planet Express Ship is the UFO
and it's just like you know, Harry Truman shows up
in like a box of deviled eggs, like table doubled eggs,
and he just like kick boxes his way out and

(43:06):
like there, it's it's good, it's it's a really I'll
have to pull that up. That's a Netflix I have
to pull Yeah, yeah, that's that's also it must. We
have another thing that came out a couple of years ago.
Some woman came up with a book that explained the
Roswell incident, which was that it was it was an
advanced Soviet craft and the Nazis apparently had been experiments

(43:27):
and altering human physiology, and so they apparently it took
some of these they had captured some of these these
basically human beings who had been altered by the Nazis
and stuffed him into this, uh this craft that they
did and flew into Roswald crashed it there because they
wanted to scare the crap out of us. And this
is a real book to somebody, that's the basis in

(43:48):
the whole book. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well it was a
Soviet thing, yeah, with Nazi altered midgets and uh yeah, alright.
I never got around to reading that one. I don't
know why read I got so many, so many reading
hours in the day. Yeah, well, let's move to the
next theory that that kind of steps away from some

(44:09):
of that, and that is the Disclosure Project. One of
the inspirations that that McKinnon had was the Disclosure Project
and it's run by a group called c ST. It's
so it's c S E T I and they're they're
headed by a guy by the name of Dr Stephen Greer.

(44:31):
Are they connected to SET at all? No, No, they
are not, but CCT and this is right on their website.
This is how they explained themselves. There's a lot of
quotes in this episode. I just realized. The Disclosure Project
is a research project working to fully disclose the facts
about UFOs extraterrestrial, intelligent and classified advanced energy and propulsion systems.

(44:58):
We have over five government, military and intelligent community witnesses
testifying to their direct personal, firsthand experience with UFOs E
T s ET technology and the cover up that keeps
this information secret end quote working so well, I suppose
they have five people they're supposedly talking. Yeah, they say

(45:20):
they have all of these people on record on videotape
or video. They've recorded them. It's probably not the right term,
but they've recorded all of their interviews about what they
saw and and interacted with and are they online somewhere,
are they like available to the public disclosure put out
a They have a it's almost a two hour documentary

(45:42):
about them and what they're after, and it's called Serious
s I R I U S I believe it is
how you pronounce it um. I watched it and it's
a lot about their beliefs and what's the best way
to explain in the way that they look at it.
They believe that extraterrestrials are coming to this planet, and

(46:07):
they have been coming to this planet for a long time.
But they're actually multidimensional beings. So what's going on is
that they will they will record the sky there's a
dot moving, and then that dot fades out and they disappear.
They're jumping dimensions. They use a lot of meditative techniques.

(46:30):
They all sit outside and stare at the sky and
they watch these things. It's it's very different. It's a
very different approach to finding space aliens. But they also
say that they have a lot of evidence that we
have this technology and that that technology is known about

(46:52):
and being suppressed. So so let me get this straight.
They have a two hour film or video out on
the internet, and in this they talk about their philosophy
and all this stuff, but they don't present a single
shred of evidence. Well, they do have some what they
do have evidence that they present as to why it's
real and why it's being suppressed, But it's a two

(47:15):
hour movie, so it's very hard to to condense into
a two minute explanation. I guess it also does make
sense that if they want their movie to be seen,
they probably don't want to put the information that's trying
to be suppressed in it, right, because then the movie
will be suppressed and then they can't get their information.
You have to do it in like measured doses, and
and here's here's their measured dose. They say that the

(47:38):
government has the tech, or they know the tech exists,
and that likely they've been in contact with or they've
taken technology from aliens. And while they could disclose that
to everybody and put it out there for the world
to know about and use, there's a major problem, and
that's a financial one. And the financial problem is that

(48:02):
we're very dependent on fossil fuels, and according to them,
there are four major companies that are out there that
provide this fossil fuel. At the same time, there are
four major financial institutions in this country, and each one
of those is married to one of those companies that

(48:22):
provides all those fossil fuels, and they don't want to
let it out there because then they're gonna lose all
of their revenue and their profits from our dependence on
fossil fuels. Well. So, yeah, but you know, stories like
this have been around since I was a kid. I
was a kid, there was always talking about, oh, somebody
invented a car that will run on water, and then

(48:42):
these guys showed up from GM and then took his
plans and beat him up real good and stuff. You know.
The thing about it is is that free energy, even
if there's never there's never gonna be any such thing
as just free energy. It's always going to cost something,
and you're you're gonna have to build power plants or
whatever um and still generate the stuff, and so you know,
there's always gonna be a profit to be made off

(49:03):
of it. I mean, you know, a solar energy is
a great example of this, right. I mean, it's super
cheap to like install your solar panels and just have
your own energy and likes the right place in this guy,
but like nobody does that because nobody does that anymore. Well,
it's not cheap. The panels are not that cheap, and
they're getting cheaper, getting cheaper, but they'll they'll never be

(49:25):
it'll never be competitive with oil or coal. Well, and
the other problem is is that the power companies are
geared to generate electricity. So when you're generating electricity and
you're trying to pour it back into the system, they
have no way to store it, so they will they
they Hawaii is a prime example. Everybody. There's so many

(49:48):
people that use solar energy there and they run off
of it. But the power company actually takes a very
small fraction of the energy that they capture it allows
it back into the grid because they have no way
to store it. There's and it would overload the system.
So maybe if they instead of worked so hard at

(50:10):
generating power, figured out how to store it to then
reuse it or release it at night or whatever, this
would make sense. But these you know, the proponents are saying, well,
of course they don't want to do that because then
they would lose money because they would be paying me
for the energy that I pipe in from my solar panels.
It's not. Yeah, and the storage and stuff that, I mean,

(50:32):
you can store it yourself if you want to fill
your basement with batteries or something like that. The power
company is stored in reservoirs of water, for example, by
pumping water uphill. That adds a lot of another layer
of expense to the technology. Uh, same with So that's
this free energy thing. I think it's quite possible that
if it exists, and if there's a big conspiracy of
conspiracy surrounding it because of oil companies, well what you

(50:55):
do is you as you turn the technology over to
those guys and then get out of the oil business
and they get into the the energy business. I mean
they're in the energy business now. So it's simple from
our perspective, it's it's very simple. It's very easy to say, well,
this is bad and this is a little better, why
don't you transition over. But when you're trying to prove

(51:19):
profits or provide profits to your board and your investors,
and you say, hey, so that thing that makes us
all that money, we're actually going to scale that back
and we're going to sink a bunch of money into
this other thing. So you're not going to make as
much for a while, maybe a long time. Well, you know,
they they usually get a little resistance when they when

(51:40):
they say they want to go that direction. Now they're not.
They're not going to need to scale back on oil sales.
And actually, when you think about it, you know that
the great thing about it is if the US government
has this, then it can turn the technology over to
private companies. The banks that have investments in these private
companies probably also have investments and other fossil field companies overseas,
so they can they can. Of course they'll all be

(52:02):
in collision with each other, they can divest themselves with
those investments were a reasonable period of time. This this
makes sense as to why if it did exist, why
it wouldn't already be out there, because financially that just
that path makes sense. Yeah, And so you turn it
over to Exxon and in a few other companies and
give them exclusive pattern rights over this thing, and they say, hey,

(52:24):
foreign countries, you can have this great power generation capacity.
We're going to run the plant and keep this technology
a secret, but it's cheaper than anything else out there,
and so we could actually dominate energy production all around
the world. I mean, it would be it would be awesome.
I a little bit don't want to go without saying
I'm looping a little bit back right now that I'm

(52:44):
always interested in how these theories are always like, wow,
the US government has all of this extraterrestrial you know, like, okay,
we are we the biggest country in the world. No,
that's Russia. Are we like the most superpower? If you
were looking down on the Earth and trying to like
kind of figure out who you would want to like

(53:06):
communicate with, would it be America? Probably not. So it's
always interesting to me when these theories are like, well,
the US government has all this technology, and it's like
so egotistical in my mind. If you're listening and want
to have a further conversation, this is the conversation that
some of our listeners know. I am happy to have email.
But but you know, actually, if you're an alien looking

(53:27):
down on the planet and you're deciding which which country
did go can make contact with? The US actually makes
sense because we we are the most developed country in
terms of things like infrastructure. If you're an alien, you
just count things like damns and just number of light
bulbs that are burning at night and big buildings, big cities,
stuff like that. Maybe it's just because all of the
stuff in in the sky the US s yeah, yeah,

(53:53):
but also Europe obviously it would be a pretty good
candidate too. But yeah, but Russia would not be a
good at It is big, but it's kind of a
third world country. Yeah, they're they're a little behind the times.
But that's that's a completely different topic. Alright. Well, well
that's the That is the Disclosure Project, and that is
again one of the things that that Gary McKinnon really

(54:16):
seems to have based his initial decision to go on
this search for and they do talk the Disclosure Project
does talk about some of the things that Joe started
to talk about a little bit ago, about the free
energy bit, and and I want to go into that
because and again this this is this is going to
be a very quick surface overview of this bit of

(54:38):
the topic, because this is another one of those things
that could just explode into ten shows on its own.
And I'm only going to touch on a couple of
them briefly, I think, before we get too far into
the theories or these cases, which probably just real quick
to find kind of what free energy is. And and

(54:59):
again this is one of the those things. Sometimes Wikipedia
has the simplest way to explain things. You verbatim that
I got a verbatim directly from Wikipedia. It's not for
lack of trying, but it's just the simplest, most direct
explanation of it. Crowdsourcing works or something something like that. Crazy.
So according to Wikipedia, the quote for what is free energy,

(55:22):
the type of devices that are allegedly suppressed include perpetual
motion machines, cold fusion generators, tourists based generators, reverse engineered
extraterrestrial technology, and other generally unproven or pseudo scientific low
cost energy sources. Generator. I had to look that up.

(55:48):
It is the I can. It is so hard to explain,
but it's basically two spheres in motion, and there's there's
a horn taurists and a sphere taurus and a ring
to is. It's it's some serious math. And I watched
a little illustration of a little video of how these
things work and it was cool. Look, it's it's like

(56:11):
there's a doughnut and then the donut comes together and
then it's spear pulls together into a sphere. It's it's
super complex and there's a giant math equation on how
it works. But evidently how it would work, how it
would work, and it's evidently congenerate gods of of power.
I don't know that of gods plus ten powerscule amounts

(56:36):
and then it's itself generates. Okay, well there's there is
according to the vernacular. Um, you know all of these
stories of people who have come up with technology that
then got suppressed, and these are some of the ones
that get pointed at by the Disclosure Project from CCT.

(56:56):
And one of those is there's a guy by the
name of doctor Henry Murray, and he supposedly invented a
device that could absorb energy from a vacuum, and so
it would just absorb energy and then you know, you
could use it to run whenever you wanted. And then
his machines were stolen and destroyed and you can never

(57:18):
make it again. Before he died, there's of course Tesla.
Everybody always pointed Tesla for his free energy and all
these crazy things that he came up with, wireless energy,
wireless energy, But I don't know if that was ever
free energy, was it? I don't they point to wireless

(57:38):
energy as a free energy source. Okay, again, his stuff
is a little bit above my pay grades. So I
never understood that the Tesla did actually have an idea
for transporting energy wirelessly, But that doesn't mean it was free.
It was still generated a conventional way, but it was
transported without having to have a power grid like we

(58:00):
have that right, that was his idea. He never put
it in fruition, and I could be way off on that.
So I suspect that it's, um, such a huge part
of the cost of energy is the actual transportation of
the energy that you know, it's if you use Tesla's
theories or ideas or whatever, you cut that cost out

(58:21):
essentially so that you know, you whatever down there, you're
taurusts based generators or whatever, and then you transport it
through Tesla's methods, than it's essentially free. Yeah, cheap at
that point or maybe not. Maybe that's why I've never
been implemented, is because it costs more. So I don't know, um.
But the other one that that that we have here

(58:43):
is and you mentioned this earlier, Joe, is Charles L. Garrett,
the guy who invented the water few water powered car
burned water and supposedly, you know, government agents showed up
and took his device, and then he was again never
able to recreate it before he died or no, now

(59:05):
he he had a bunch of backers, and then the
government supposedly came down on him and a court of
law got involved, said he created all this stuff fraudulently
and it didn't work, and all this investors suit the
crap out of him, and so he died penniless, and
so he could never create it again. Like a bunch

(59:25):
of it got confiscated for some reason and it just disappeared.
It's in somewhere house somewhere. Yeah, but regardless, it's you know,
we can't get at it, so we can't use it.
And and this is this is like most of these
is that you know, it's all being suppressed and so

(59:46):
therefore we can't use it, and we're not saving the money.
In these large institutions, not necessarily government but maybe corporate
are profiting from our lack of access to this technology.
There was a book word, you know, recommending books. Uh,
there was a book um imna say five years ago
that came out. It was called The Family. Check it Out.

(01:00:08):
That's all I'll say about it. Crack it out. In
reference to this sort of stuff. Okay, but I want
to say this is, uh, this is a common theme
in human history, which is which is that utopia is
just around the corner except for these dark forces. And
the dark forces are corporations or they're the Jews, government, government. Yeah,
and this and this, this, you know, going down this path,

(01:00:30):
you know very often least to dark results. I mean,
we'll see for example, the Holocaust, the you know, I mean, seriously, people,
if if if there is a miraculous technology out there,
then the people that are in possession of it, can
you obviously use it to make a lot of money.
It doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense to hide it. Yeah,

(01:00:51):
that's very true. But Joe Aliens Aliens, Okay, never mind,
Well let's let's let's move on to the others. And
we've discussed a little bit of the other side of
the coin. But let's go to the other side of
the coin, which is Gary found nothing. Okay, Well, according
to some people also known as the government, he find

(01:01:15):
nothing and he made it all up. Now there's there's
a pretty good basis for why Gary might be looked
at as having made all of this up. No, by
his own admission at the time that he was doing
all of this, he was spoken a lot of pot

(01:01:37):
as we know that causes lots of hallucinations and brain
damage and um did madness. Yeah he remember, he said,
I wasn't quick enough to get a screenshot, or or
I didn't think to save the file, just stare at
the screen like, oh wow, man, pixels. It's possible that

(01:01:58):
he was just high as a kite and that's why
he can't remember these things. Or maybe you know, he
had some great hash and he was just dreaming it
all up. It might have been that he was trying
to hack a defense department thing and he got into
some alien UFO website. Maybe he wasn't even in the
government the government. He might have been on just some

(01:02:19):
random website. Although let's be fair, the reason that the
UK arrested him was because somebody had confirmed hacked into
the U. S. Government server and they traced it to
him and his apartment. Right, so like we can say, ah,

(01:02:41):
he was like seeing something he didn't think he was seeing,
but he was. It's I mean, it's essentially confirmed on
the books that he was successful in hacking into the U. S.
Government's database and here's the worst part. We haven't really
talked about it how he managed to do some of it,
but I think Joe mentioned some of this. He wrote

(01:03:01):
a script, I think it was a Pearl script, and
he wrote a Pearl script that scanned computers that we're
using the default Windows log in names, so not even
a customized name, therefore using the administrator and the default
password thing. And that's how he was getting into their computers.

(01:03:26):
And he said when he was in there, because they
say here they described McKinnon's hacking as intention and calculated
to influence and effect the U. S Government by intimidation
and coercion. But he says that when he was in there,
he saw other hackers moving around in the system. Who

(01:03:47):
are you kidding me? Of course he did. And so
he claims that he didn't bring down some of these
things or delete some of these files that they say,
I don't know, I don't understand how to move into
network to be able to see that kind of information.
But he says he saw other hackers in there, and

(01:04:09):
that he didn't delete some of those fives. He said,
I deleted some files, but I deletes all the files
you claim I deleted and it could be that he
went into a directory and then came out of the
director he left his footprints because he wasn't very good
at covering his tracks. Somebody else comes in, deletes a
bunch of stuff, covers their tracks to the only person

(01:04:31):
they have to follow is him. Yeah, it's true. I mean,
it's it's the old walking in the snow backwards and
somebody else's footprints all the time, all the time. But no,
that's true. It sounds like they're pretty much wide up,
and you bet there'll be other people in there. Yeah,
and yeah, it's just it's hard, you guys, It really is.
And they they're saying that in this year period, like

(01:04:51):
he he hacked into where's the number, um, you know,
all these systems plus the sixteen NASA computer, sixty thousand
machines right, yeah, yeah, Well he was able to stand
sixty five thousand machines with that Pearl script to find
the ones that he could access because they had a

(01:05:12):
basic log in. That's so clever. That's just so weird
to me. The whole like dynamic of like being sophisticated
enough to write a pearl script like does this right?
But yeah, but being so dumb as to not like
like just put a little like it's yeah, and and

(01:05:35):
again I'm not I'm not casting aspersions on him, but
I think the part of his part of his issue
is that he was not in a state of mind,
was not very stable at the time or clear to think, well,
if I get in there, will somebody find out? Well,

(01:05:55):
But like tour networks have existed basically since the Internet existed,
Like to not use something like that is like that
would have been in the hackers handbook, Like that would
have been chapter one in the Hackers Handbook. So I
don't I just don't totally understand the lack of use
of you know, any kind of protection or anything, or

(01:06:18):
I guess on the opposite yeah, or on the opposite
end of that, like maybe you know, I guess it's
conceivable that the US government was capable of tracking something
through that surprise everybody who listens here as a hacker.
Maybe they are. Maybe the n s A is so
good that they can actually see through your tour network. Um,

(01:06:39):
but to not then, but then they should be smart
enough to change their stupid passwords or like even just
put an actual password on there. I just here's dynamic.
Here's the other The other point to this is that
the fact that he he got into their system is

(01:06:59):
a re you thumb in the eye. Yeah, that's really
they got egg on their face. And it's entirely possible
that he got in there and he found Jack squat.
He was just going through personnel records that were used
worth nothing, or transport logs that meant nothing. But by god,

(01:07:20):
somebody got in and we got to make an example
of him about let's be fair, somebody got in that
we can track. Yeah, there's that right, Well that's we've
got our patsy. Yeah. But as to but as to
um so, he found nothing, but he claimed that he
found something. So the question is why did he? Yeah,
and I think think of a couple of reasons why.

(01:07:42):
The first number one, he wants attention, okay, yeah. Number two, well,
number two, he's he's he's actually got some legal problems
at this point in time, and he needs money for lawyers.
And so so I got the UFO thing. You get
a lot more people interested in your case, and uh
so you actually actually create more possibilities that But from

(01:08:03):
the start, from the very hem, the very start, he
had the UFO angle. Okay, so he claimed to be
looking at the evidence for UFOs and stuff like that,
but he didn't actually make any statements about UFOs or
anything to anybody that we know of until after he
was he was arrested. Right, So, if he's a smart

(01:08:25):
thinking guy, maybe he's not. I don't know. It sounds
like he's somewhat bright, but obviously not bright enough to
cover his tracks. But he might have looked at that
as a kind of a helpful legal defense. Um claiming
that you saw wacky things, you know, like you know,
things like aircraft carrier size, spaceships, you know, orbiting the planet,
you know, and he saw this stuff. He saw the
picture of a cigar shaped object and a stuff like

(01:08:47):
that might actually aid your legal defense somewhere down the line,
because they'll know your your lawyers can point to the
fact that you're delusional. Yeah, I don't think that's necessarily
the track somebody would take. I don't think that would
benefit you. Well, for me, I can see the benefit of,
you know, throwing out all these things kind of like

(01:09:09):
just casting a large net, right that, Like on the
off chance that even one even one XL document in
one computer somewhere had something that could maybe even be
construed the way that he construed it, that that would
actually freak a lot of government agencies out right, that

(01:09:30):
you could say like, oh, yeah, I did see this
picture that had this cigar. You're you're casting a wide
net hoping that you're going to catch one thing that
the government's trying to cover up, right, that might cause
them to say, oh, you know, don't release that. You know,
so I think that I can see it. Yeah, you're
just kind of like, yeah, exactly, that you're hoping that

(01:09:54):
they are actually suppressing something like that, and that if
they are, then it will benefit you and if not.
Obviously it didn't set off on the alarm bills, did it. Well?
I mean they wanted to extra, they wanted wanted, like,
you know, put him in jail for hacking, but they
didn't seem too frightened about him de bulging any information
that they got. Yeah, well, mostly they had his computer.

(01:10:16):
He can't prove it either way, It doesn't matter. No.
Evidently he had a bunch of people other people's computers
that he've been working on. Those got sees. It took
forever to get those back, but he never he never
got his computers, but of course not, of course not.
But by the time you get your computer back, it's
kind of obsolete anyway. Yeah, this is very true, and
you're not allowed to connect it to the internet anymore.

(01:10:36):
So it's yes, well that's that's that's the story, and
that's the theories around the whole thing with with Gary McKinnon,
and I just want to you know, I know that
we've all kind of gone into this, but is there
any last bit, you know, your summation or your theory
about what you think happened. I think he made it up.
But now if if he discovered evidence that we have

(01:10:58):
ten aircraft carrier side spaceships in orbit right now, number one,
any anything like that, it's going to be impossible to
keep secret, you know, I mean, just there's gonna be
so there's so many people involved in building and launching
and operating those things, and obviously the launches themselves are
gonna be kind of visible all the way all around.
But also we could have even if we have perfect conspiracy,

(01:11:18):
perfect conspiracy in the US government, nobody was talking what
about the Russians, of Chinese and lots of other countries
that track orbiting objects? How can they not notice the
ships in orbit worldwide. It's that big. All the world
leaders would have to know, we'd all be working together again. Wow,

(01:11:42):
kind of hard to believe that none of that's going
to leak out, you know. I I a little bit
alluded to this earlier, This whole like the huge problem
I have with things like this, Like we we talk
about aliens all the time, and I really like aliens,
and I like UFOs and I like all that stuff.
But for us to say, yeah, the United States itself

(01:12:03):
is covering up all this stuff is just ludicrous to me.
You know, I think that there's something to be said
for alien technology whatever. I think it's more likely that
we're trying to develop things on our own. I think
it's more likely that we haven't captured any kind of
extraterrestrial What roswell is, what area one is, who knows.

(01:12:28):
But I think the UFOs in general can be explained away.
There are other aspects of like alien Earth visitation stuff
that I really like. But in terms of this, we
don't have spaceships up there, guys, Like, we just don't.
We don't have we don't. I wish we did, too,
Like I really wish we did, but we don't, you know,

(01:12:52):
we just we just don't. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
I you know. My my perspective of on this is
I think that it's possible that Gary found something. I
don't think that is as extreme as he found. And
actually all of the theories that we've talked about, I

(01:13:14):
think that there's credence in all of them, but I
think that it is a minuscule percent, like one or
two percent of truth in the stories. Like there's probably
technologies like we've talked about that are under development that
people don't know about, but they're not out there for
a good reason. And he might have found a leetle something,
or he might have just found nothing, and the U. S.

(01:13:36):
Government is angry at Gary and is trying to just
prove a point. I think that there probably is some
truth in that there are technologies that are cleaner, but
they're just so they're so there in there their infantile stage,
that they're just not usable. I So I think that

(01:13:56):
there's truth, and I believe all of it, but I
don't think it's a grand as it's made out to be.
I mean, there's there's things, Um, what I was doing
the research. There's this process, and this is one of
those things that people point at as as government suppression,
is that if you put forward a patent application that
could potentially have some influence for energy, and there's a

(01:14:20):
possibility that you're going to get a response letter from
the US government saying your patent has been has been
not denied, but suppressed is the wrong word. And well,
because we can't let it out there because there's possibilities
that it could get into the wrong hands and be misused.
And people say, well, go, when you have that kind
of patent, you file it in Canada first because they're

(01:14:43):
much more liberal, and then by the time the Feds
get the US Department gets ahold of it, it's too late.
It's out there. I can see that happening for uses
for certain explosive technologies or death rays or something crazy,
but I can't see that on anything that is verifiable

(01:15:03):
and really really solidly true and can be proven. I
think a lot of this is it's not fact, it's
not fiction. It's somewhere in between. People get a hold
of it, and as with many of our stories, they
build I mean, I think it's hard. There's a lot
of potential for technology out there, and if you, as

(01:15:24):
a private citizen, can come up with one thing that
I guess provides, for instance, free energy. Right, there are
so many ramifications and ripples that we don't pay attention to,
that we haven't historically paid attention to. That We've learned
from our mistakes of not paying attention to those things

(01:15:45):
that we, you know, as kind of a society say
at this point, Hey, maybe we're going to take your
patent into consideration as a huge, publicly funded agency. We
will test it. We will make sure that there's nothing
wrong with it. You know, whether or not it makes
it back to you is completely different. But you know,
I mean, we live in a world where like doctors

(01:16:06):
used to prescribe cigarettes to pregnant women secure my owning thickness,
and yeah, you know, and that was the thing because
it wasn't it just wasn't tested, you know, And we've
learned from those mistakes, and I think that oftentimes we
were overly cautious with anything that could have negative ramifications
on a large scale. And I you know, this whole

(01:16:29):
free energy thing just reeks of that to me, do
you know. Yeah, So yeah, free free energy perpetual motion
machines all that stuff. No, not quite, not quite by
black holes black holes. Yeah, was gonna say, And the
photograph that he saw, let's assume, that's assume for the
sake of fun, that he did actually see a photograph. Well, NASA,

(01:16:53):
you know, NASA's always involved in little projects and stuff
like that, or they're trying to sell a project out
of Congress, and and they do stuff like they do
artists conceptions, some of which are extremely realistic. I mean,
I see an artist conception paintings and photoshops coming out
of NASA that looked really awesome. Space suits. Yeah, and
that are like on Mars, the artists renderings. Right, there's

(01:17:16):
like men in space suits on Mars. Yeah. And so
it's not conceptual, it's it's not beyond the realm of reason.
That he saw a photograph doesn't mean it was a
real photograph of real thing. That maybe what filtered unfiltered meant, right,
unfiltered unfiltered right. It could also potentially mean at that resolution,
with that color gig assessment could have been a fly

(01:17:38):
or like a high flying bird. It could have been
that the stealth bomber was on the ground and we
didn't want to disclose that we serve as stealth bombers
at that location. There's so many simple answers. I'm not
saying that just because it's simple answer, it's right, but
there's a lot of simple answers. I did jump to
these grand conclusions, but well, I think that that we

(01:18:02):
would probably be labored this one another. Yeah, yeah, we
were gonna have a bunch of of the links to
this story. They will be on the website website, as
always is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. If you want

(01:18:23):
to go ahead and listen to the show, of course,
all of them are on the website, but you can
also go ahead and listen to the show on iTunes.
Right on iTunes, go ahead and subscribe if you like
the show, take the time if you can to leave
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And if you forget to download, and you know, what's
that day when the show is coming out, you can

(01:18:44):
always find us on Stitcher and just stream us directly
from any internet capable mobile device. Yeah yeah, Now, of
course we have We've got the Facebook page and the
face groups, so if you want to join and find us,
we've always we're always trying to put stuff out there
and keep things going. That's always fun. And last, but

(01:19:08):
not least, if if you want to have a discussion
with Devin about your perspective on Aliens, or you have
any other questions you want to ask, you can always
send us an email. Email address is Thinking Sideways podcast
at gmail dot com. And I believe that's that's all
our contact information and I think, believe it or not,
that's all that we've got on this particular show. Yeah,

(01:19:30):
we stretched as long as it could, but you can't
go any further. Something's about the snap. Yeah. Well, ladies
and gentlemen, thank you for listening, and thanks again for
for this listeners suggestion. This was a lot of fun.
Sorry it took me so long to get to it,
but it was definitely a fun one. So we will
talk to you next week. Aliens, guys, you think so