Thinking Sideways: Gobekli Tepe

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, Steve here, you are listening to one of
our original twenty six episodes. If you listen to any
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a little different in these ones. Yeah, there's a reason
for that. There is they've been remastered. They have been
remastered because they had a really annoying hum. Yeah, I
mean a huge thanks to listener James for doing almost

(00:21):
all of the legwork on this thing. They'll also notice
if you had listened to what we're calling the last
twenty six episodes before and you're re listening now, the
music and sound effects are gone. Yes, we've we've gone
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(00:50):
You never know stories of things. We simply don't know
the answer too. Hi, everyone, welcome to another episode of
Thinking Sideways the podcast. I'm Devin, I'm Steve, I'm Joe,
and today we're going to talk about a mystery. A

(01:14):
mystery I know. We're gon we're gonna solve it. We're
we're not going to solve this one. This is like
strapping folks. Because it's a long one. So Ian Hotter
of Stanford University said of this that it changes everything.
It overturns the whole apple cart, and all of our
theories are wrong. Okay, So radio carbon dating puts this

(01:36):
temple site roughly between ten thousand and nine thousand BC,
which is like eleven to twelve thousand years old. Wait
what temple? Say that? Are you referring to this one
that we're going to talk about in a second. Calm down,
mysterious Joe. For reference, more, time has elapsed between the
building of this site and the building of Stonehenge, then

(01:57):
elapsed between the building of Stonehenge, and now that's a
long time. Yeah, it's a really long time. Stonehenge was
built in three thousand BC. Yeah, that's a lot. That's
a long time. That's so that's way back. Yeah. So
this is for the generally accepted time frame of human evolution. Um,
the first Homo sapiens are like kind of starting to

(02:17):
appear at ten thousand BC. So we're kind of in
the like just walk starting to walk upright, using tools,
making paintings, killing animals, kind of how stuff has self consciousness,
but we're still seeing cro magnut Man. We're solidly in
the Stone Age, and one archaeologist explained that this is
like finding out the three year old built the Empire

(02:37):
state building with legos. Okay, I like that. Yeah, I
like that analogy too. I think it's really perfect because
I think it's a little arrogant. It's it's like really
a put down of ancient man. I think Asian man
was a lot cleverer than a three year old. I
think they were capable of great things. Maybe maybe this,
you know, in the reference of time and you know,

(02:58):
you're you're growing up, understand what analogy? Yeah, so we're
talking about oh, yes, we would be, we would be
wouldn't talk h Yeah. So they call this the world
oldest temple or something or something something re example, we

(03:19):
don't know. We don't know. I mean, we just don't know. Okay.
So I just want to get a little bit of
terminology out of the way because this trips me up
a lot when thinking about history and prehistory. Yeah, it's weird.
It's a weird terminology. And the thing about it is
is that you know this. For the purposes of this episode,
we're basically going to say history started when writing started, okay,

(03:41):
which is a kind of an anthropological accepted use of
those terms. Again, everybody uses different things, but this for this,
for this episode, we're gonna talk. We're gonna be talking
a lot about prehistory. And I just want to make
it clear that we're referring to a time before writing. Okay,
let's or they started writing things. We have a recording

(04:03):
of events history. There is a little bit of history
from before because there were tales handed down by orally
for for many many generations. Sure, right, but those are
harder to track. They are very concrete, and yeah, I
understand why, Devin. So we're gonna use that. It's kind
of our our reference point. That is the reason where
it's from. So I just want to make it very

(04:24):
clear that for the it's just for the purposes of
this episode, we're going to be talking about prehistory a lot.
I don't want everybody to know. We're not talking about
the dinosaurs. We're talking about a time before writing. Where
was the trace sarratos in this There weren't any dinosaurs
when this was built. I don't think so. I think
they were wiped out by then. I'm so, how do

(04:47):
you know, the dinosaurs didn't build this, I don't you
know what? And there's like, you know again, who knows?
All right, let's talk a little bit about what this
thing temple space site. Yeah, I think site is probably occurred.
So it's in Turkey. It's two thousand, four hundred and
ninety three ft above sea level. It's on this hill

(05:09):
called god Beckley Tepee, which translates roughly into pot belly
hill or maybe navel of the Earth. It's what the
hill is called itself. So the site has been just
named after the hill that it was found on. Okay,
So it's whereas we have let's say Mount Rushmore. They're saying, well,
the name of it or Mount Everest would be better.

(05:31):
You know. It's something that we recognize, got a name.
It's like, oh and this is we're just calling it
what the name of that hill has always been. Yeah.
So this, this hill has been called this for you
know ever since anybody can ever remember, I got it.
The site itself is a series of rings um. Most
of these rings have two large stones that are like
T shaped pillars that are surrounded by a circle of

(05:54):
slightly smaller stones which face inward. The tall pillars are
usually about twenty feet high and way up to twenty tons.
They're fitted into sockets that were either cut out of
the bedrock or um set into like a concrete like floor.
There are more than two hundred pillars um in about

(06:14):
twenty circles. That's the current estimate through geophysical surveys. There
may be more, there may be less. They can't really
and the geophysical surveys correct me if I'm wrong. That's
basically where they're making a little rolling card that does
ultrasonic readings of what it sees underground. Yeah, done any
ground radar scans or anything like that. Yeah, so they've

(06:36):
done all that stuff. They're kind of trying to That's
as far as they can tell. That's what there is.
But you know, again, as far as they can tell
from what they're seeing. Yeah, through what they're seeing, you know,
there's you can only dig things up so fast, you know,
and especially with a site like this, you don't want
to just like hurry it up already and get everything
out because who knows. Yeah, Okay, the stones, most of

(06:58):
them have carvings of animals on them in the stone,
and the circles range from thirty two ft to eighty
nine ft in diameter. Yeah, thank you. Um, it's the difference,
it turns out. And that's so we had this discussion

(07:19):
before we started recording. I didn't know what thirty two
ft was, you know, actually put it into physical form.
You I joked, how many football fields is that? It's none?
So if you two rulers and yeah, so it's like
about the size of like those big r vs you see,
or like a school school bus sort of yeah, about that,

(07:44):
but also not tiny. No, So I don't know. And
when you say that it these have the T shaped pillars,
is that what you call them? In the center? That
was really hard for me to understand. And and I
was looking at the photos. So when you say teeth
shaped pillar, it's not one piece of rock that's been

(08:06):
carved into a T, but it's two rocks set on
top of each other to make a T shape. To
one's long and skinny at the top, and then one
skinny and going down in the ground. Is that because
T shaped rock is a weird way to say it,
we should clarify this as an upper case an upper
case T. And um, I'm actually not sure about that.

(08:29):
I have the impression that some of them are one.
I had thought that they were because if you look
at them, there there they and flat, and if you
try to stack them on top of one or another,
it probably wouldn't work out that one. And again it's
I didn't I didn't get that impression from when I
looked at the photos of this, but I mean, I
don't know. It's my impression. Some of the accounts that

(08:50):
I read said that these stones would have been sixties
tons when they took them out of the quarry and
like brought them up. So it's my impression they brought
these one like giant carbon carved one giant unit. But
I mean, you know it, maybe that would be simpler.
That's true. So that's the impression that I have, although

(09:12):
I can't tell you that I explicitly saw that anywhere.
Um So, there are three layers of this thing. And
you know, we kind of had this discussion earlier to
about the impressions of layers, and I'm like sure that
the layers are just like different time, different gales, kind
of different like places on the hill, not that one

(09:34):
is like layered literally on top of the other. And
again that's just the impression I have and you know
there there there are to be three different structures, a
big medium with a small one. Well, there are lots
of different structures. There's there's like twenty. Yeah, so they're
they're different kinds of different eras. So the layer three

(09:56):
is the oldest um and the deepest, so like the
lowest on the hill um and it's where you see circles.
The archaeologists suspect that they may have had roofs on
them at one point. What kind of roofs hatch? Maybe
nobody is really totally sure because there isn't any really
evidence of these things being left behind. So and then

(10:17):
you the kind of animal carvings you see in this
layer are basic animal reliefs. They look like this, dear listeners,
you cannot see, but if you go to the website
you'll be able to see them. Yeah, they're just like
relief carving. Yeah, they're very simplistic basic relief. And by
the way, for anybody who doesn't know, relief means that

(10:37):
you carve away anything that is not going to be shown.
So in the one we're looking at, it was a bird,
so everything around the bird is carved away, so only
the bird is sticking forward, right, it's actually a tougher
way to do things. You know, it's a lot easier
to chisel a bird into a rock than the chisel
away everything that doesn't look like a bird rock and
that and and the the other ones that you see

(10:59):
are also released, but they're way more complex. This is
just like a basic one dimensional well three dimensional, but
like it's just flat basically. Um again, you know, it's amazing.
I mean there's no evidence of tools, and then what
kind of tools did these guys use? So that's that's
pretty interesting. Yeah, So there are no humanoid figures that

(11:20):
are carved. They're all animals, although some people suggest that
the large T shapes are in fact the humanoid figures. Um.
A lot of them have kind of arms at their sides,
and we'll get into this theory a little bit more. Um,
but some of them have kind of like arms carved
into them a little bit. So some people think maybe
that they're supposed to be like human animal hybrids or

(11:44):
like kind of god esque figures like you would see
an ancient Egypt where they're like a human with a
something head okay or okay, so there's actually carvings of
on some of them on some of them, not all
of them. And I mean, you know, when we're looking
at a picture of one of the reliefs right now,
when it's like a couple of different animals carved into
this one thing and there's no arms, and it doesn't

(12:05):
look like it's a representation of a human something hybrid.
And that's what I was trying to understand is I'm thinking, Okay,
was the stone itself, as in just the T shape
supposed to be a representation. Some people are kind of
talking about that a little bit, and again, you know,
it's these are so old, it's kind of her It
seems unlikely though, because these guys seem good enough at

(12:27):
carving stone that if they wanted to really represent human being,
they probably would have carved more detail and more accurate representation.
Being um so layer to the structures, um start to
be more rectangular, so instead of being big circles, they're
they're kind of rectangles, which is consistent since they're younger,
and rectangles are more efficient use of space. Um So

(12:50):
it's kind of you kind of see a development of
use of building. The Yeah, rectangles are easier to build
and easier to stabilized in a circle. Yeah, and they're
and they're more efficient. So and then the reliefs start
to look way more complex. They're like really three D
images that are carved out of this one stone still,

(13:13):
so they're technically a relief, but they're really like full
on I guess, carvings on the rock like this is,
which is really really interesting and really perhaps Yeah, it's
very Yeah, they're very intricate. It's no longer one dimensional
just raised out of the stone at just a set
distance away. Now we've got full depth almost, and not

(13:36):
a use of perspective, but a use of form and
and everything that you see in an animal in terms
of its shape and punct So I guess the way
to describe it is that the reliefs in the beginning,
the first ones are more like drawings. They look like
just drawings on a piece of paper, do you just
cut away? Yeah, these are like sculptures full on. Yeah,

(13:58):
absolutely correct, Yeah, I agree with that. And then um,
layer three, which is kind of the most oh I'm sorry,
those they dated to be in like eight thousand BC.
Maybe those structures. And then layer one, which I think
is like one of the most interesting parts, is all
backfill it's all this stuff they dug up so in

(14:19):
like eight thousand BC, they just filled everything in. So
now they filled in all three layers, all three of
these things covered the whole thing over. Yeah, they filled
everything in, or somebody filled everything and maybe the original
owners didn't do it. Yeah, you know that's and this
is kind of one of the most mysterious parts of
like why would you do that? You know, I mean,

(14:41):
they're I can actually I can actually think of a
couple of reasons why this is just really interesting. They
think that they brought in filler from other places that
it's not like the feeling that they dug out of
these places, not just like yeah, and it's not like
because you know, these are all all these spaces are

(15:03):
like in the earth a little bit, all of these structures, um,
so it's not like the stuff they pulled out of
these holes that they dug to build in. It's like
stuff from kind of far away teams have they actually
like taken the samples of some of the stuff and
gone around and done geological surveys to see if they
can figure out where it came from. Yeah, and they
found debris from up to like a hundred miles away. UM.

(15:26):
So that you know, that supports some theories that people
have about these but it's it's it wasn't intentional. It
was intentional that they filled this in. It was, yeah,
and it seems to have been a really peaceful filling,
if that makes sense. That, like, if it was a
group that wasn't the group that was in charge of

(15:47):
this place or that built this place, they were very
respectful of it. They took the time to really fill
it in and try and make sure that all the
stones were filled in really well, almost as if they
were preserving it, which is really interesting. U. Yeah, maybe,
you know, it's I just think it's a really interesting
given where we were in the like again, you know,

(16:08):
I'm going to say yeah, I'm gonna say yeah, I'm
gonna use the term currently accepted because I think that
this is the big interesting part of this is that
it may force us to reconsider how human evolution happened
and when it happened, which, by the way, we probably
had to be doing all the time because pops up

(16:28):
all the time. So it doesn't according to my science
book from fifth grade. So the UM they've only excavated
like five percent. They think of this structure, so there's
a lot to go. There's a lot to go, so
there may be more stuff that we find concluding alien artifacts.
How long have they been digging this thing up? Um?

(16:50):
So they found it in uh and I don't think
they started digging it up until a couple of years
after that, and it's been kind of touch and go.
And as far as them actually people actually excavating it,
but I mean, you know, more than five years, and
if it's in Turkey, you gotta think. Okay, well, if
we think about we always see those TV shows where
let's say it's somewhere in Egypt, they're they're rapidly digging

(17:14):
everything up. And the one thing that nobody ever talks
about usually they can't excavate all year long because in
the summer in anywhere that's in this part of the world,
it's super hot. Yeah I know that gets cold, the
cold and rainy, so you can't dig up. So I'm
guessing best six months a year they can do. Yeah,

(17:35):
I don't forget, like you know, archaeologists, they can't just
go in there with the pick acts and the shovel.
They usually work with a plastic spoon from McDonald's and
a fresh about the size of what they like script,
you know, to stop and make notes in the notebook
and well and on top of that, since they found
that like this was intentionally backfilled. You know, often in
archaeological sites like this, if they're if you know, it's

(17:57):
like these big moolithic stones, you can kind of just
like you don't totally discard what you're finding, but you
don't really have to worry so much about that, And
like this they're saying, well, like this is part of it.
We have to preserve literally every bit of rock that
comes out of this place, just you know, see if
we can find out any information from any of it.
Um Days of Indiana, Jones grab the most valuable items

(18:22):
and ran out. Yeah. Unfortunately, Yeah, they've radio carbon dated
this place, and you know, people are just really astounded
that it exists. I mean, conservative estimates put the invention
of the wheel um two thousand years after the building
of this place. You know, I've seen these images of

(18:45):
people like using logs and they're like rolling these stones along.
But you know, and I don't know, I don't know
when people figured out that that worked. I think that
probably the first time somebody stepped on a round rock.
This sip the whale is probably invented and then lost
and invented, lost many times during human history. Yeah, okay,

(19:06):
so so I don't know that. How old did they say?
This is ten BC? So eleven to twelve thousand years old.
They've estimated it would have taken five men per pillar
to move it from the quarry. We're talking about just
lifting and lifting and caring or pushing again. I mean,
you know, it's like tons rock. Good luck at five

(19:29):
men underneath it. Yeah, Like it's just I mean, it's
it's a giant project. And you know, we're still in
our hunter gatherer phase. We're not really starting with big
tribes or anything like that. For you know, that many
people to have worked towards something that wasn't necessary for
survival is kind of mind boggling in a way. Yeah.

(19:52):
You know, it makes you wonder too if they actually
had domesticated some beasts of burden. Yeah, that a little bit.
I just think you know, the thing, one of the
things that makes this place so interesting is that, you know, yeah,
it's a massive amount of work, but people aren't really like, well,
it's totally unreasonable that people could have moved those stones.

(20:14):
You know, we're not talking about Stonehenge where we're like, well,
how did they get them on top of their you know,
like that's okay, those are big stones and people moved
them and you know whatever, and that's a mystery and
of itself. But we can understand how people could have
moved these But that's like more people than we thought
like would have been together in a spot, working towards
a common goal, you know. And and you know, we

(20:38):
think of these people as like kind of figuring out
how like the bone arrow works, but not really concerned
about their spiritual well being. Right, So that's you know,
another part of it is that if it were clearly
a place where you know, everybody was hunting people and
or hunting animals and you know, it was a survival place,

(20:59):
it would make more sense. But it's it doesn't seem
to be that, and so that's really astounding, it is.
But here's here's the thing that bothers me. Whenever we're
looking at a monolithic site, so we always say that
it is X number years old, and that is always

(21:22):
based on radio carbon dating. The thing that bothers me,
and I think I mentioned this to you guys before
is when we've done monolithic science is something never I
can never wrap my head around. I finally figured out
what it is, which is my problem is is that
carbon dating can only be done to biological material. So

(21:45):
if it's a stone, we can't carbon date it because
it's eons old, because it's a hunk on the earth.
So all we can do is whatever organic material we
find at the site is what we can base our
dates upon. The reason that we can't do it on
anything but organic material is because the way carbon dating

(22:07):
works is we all have carbon in us, and we
were carbon based life forms. Okay, um, but we all
have carbon twelve in us, but there is what's called
carbon fourteen which is present in all of us, but
in very small amounts. And carbon fourteen has this half

(22:28):
life of five thousand, seven hun some odd years basically
fifty years, and that's it's half life. So they know
the approximate amount of carbon fourteen that's in the air,
in the atmosphere and implants at that time, so they
know how much should be there, and then they do
the math from there how much of it is broken down? Okay, well,
that's that makes sense. But then if we're going into

(22:50):
a site that's all stone, there's not a lot of
biological material left over, and especially on a site like
this where it's been backfill. I've got it, and and
not that I don't recognize how phenomenal the site is,
but I've got to ask how sure are we of
this number? Because these pieces of material that we're dating,

(23:14):
which there's not a whole lot of it, it sounds
like that they're finding if it's backfilled and they're digging
up somewhere else to cart material in. Well, that could
be older material that's in the ground, older organic material.
It's already been breaking down for god knows how long
this transferred in. So but this is the one that

(23:35):
I mean, it makes me question the whole date. I
and s it's amazing if it's as old as they
say it are. But I wonder. But you know, you uh,
I know that from my own experience, like safe you get,
you know about my pile of concrete slabs in my driveways,
keeping organic material out of that it's hard. So if

(23:55):
they chills it up, all this rocket busted up, all
this rock froods somewhere else and transported to the site
and up it in It's almost a certainty that some
leaves and stuff like that would get in there, you know,
And so maybe that's what they're basing they're dating on.
I mean, I'm not sure again, but it could be.
It could be that they went down the other side
of the hill and they started digging a hole and

(24:15):
they got some old stuff. I mean, I'm not saying
that the age is wrong. I'm just I have a
hard time swallowing it. Knowing that there's this bit of
an issue when it comes to monolithic site. That's fair.
And you know, I didn't do any research on that
because literally everyone I've read about on this, and they're

(24:38):
all like pretty impressive accredited scientists and archaeologists, have also
not had a problem with carbon dating, So I you know,
when I was doing my research, I've just kind of
been taking it on faith that like, if this were
an issue, if they really had questions about it, somebody
would have brought it up um, And it doesn't seem
to be the case. I mean, if anything, people are

(24:59):
saying it's probablybly older than this carbon dating is saying
it is, which is, you know, an interesting thing in
and of itself, but it seems that when people are saying, oh,
it's you know, or twelve thousand years old, that it's
kind of a conservative estimate, and it could very well be.
It could also be that because they're all involved in

(25:21):
the project, they're all drinking the kool aid. To use
the old term it heard thinking. I mean I would
have to actually like talk to one of these guys
and find out their methodology. So if they're they're if
they're excavating all this stuff, I mean, if you if
you pluck some piece of debris out of there and
radiocarbon dated, well that's a little sketchy. If what you're
doing is is getting every little bit or from all

(25:43):
over the place, you know, varying depths and varying locations,
and you pretty much get the same reading, that's that
would be to me an indication that probably they're getting
an accurate estimate. YEA, I never thought how much material
they were finding other things. Yeah, I had some stuff
that said that it was a lot. Yeah, you got
you gotta kind of hope these guys actually know what

(26:04):
they're doing. We're taking a little bit of stuff on faith.
They really they were a yeah, there's one lead archaeologist
on this thing and his team are the team that's
working on it, But everybody else who does writing about
it isn't actually like a part of the excavation of
this project, so they're all kind of independent. It's essentially

(26:26):
being pure viewed. Yeah. Um, so, as far as I
can tell, nobody really has the problem a problem with this,
And I don't know that it just one of those
things that always crops off what I think about these things.
It always there have been there have been some some
pretty big errors in the past and carbon dating, you know,
they have been So it's a it's a reasonable issue

(26:50):
to bring up. Yeah, all right, So let's so we've
got some theory. I'm assuming you've got theory. We have
a just a few theory about why how it was done, Um,
why they did it? Mostly okay, the how it's done
pretty obvious and stood it up, I guess. I mean,

(27:10):
there's not really a lot of theories on it. I mean,
we'll talk about some stuff maybe, but I mean most
of the stuff is, you know, it's it's the mystery
of how they did it is kind of I think
at this point people just accept that it means that
we have to reevaluate the probably prehistoric humans work, which

(27:32):
we're able to actually you know, actually make metals like
bronze at least. But so let me let me ask
you this, sorry if I'm jumping ahead or anything. But
have they found the place where these stones were quarried from? Yes,
they have, and they were quarried in quote Neolithic times,
which is like this time, but also in more classical times. Um.

(27:54):
They found big gashes in the earth where they thought
the big stones were probably taken from. UM, but they
can't find any information on like where this core is is.
It's close. It's pretty close. That's they call the plateau,
and you can think about it. They may not if this,
if they're still doing all this research, there may be

(28:15):
a certain amount of information that you want to hold
back so that not every time Dick and Harry runs
out there to check it out and take their own
piece of the rock and say, look this was carved
by you know man ten tho years ago and destroy
a sign. Yeah, so they But also I mean, I
suppose what I was curious about was whether there were

(28:36):
any unfinished T shaped slabs or anything like that. But
but but now that I think about it, I suppose
that those corries probably would have been in use years
after it was a mention of them, of the Romans
corrying some of it for like watch toowers and stuff.
So it's been I mean, it's been in use for
you know, a long time afterwards, a long time. So

(28:57):
you know, again they have these like big trenches. They
think this is probably where this rock came from, but
they don't actually know about any of that. Alright, Ready
to get some theories in here, theories up in here. Okay, yes,
the first theory. So it's a temple, like a normal
human temple. That's good theory. It's pretty good theory, right,

(29:20):
So most scientists agree this is probably the first example
of what's called the cathedral on the Hill, which would
have been the first place that people would have taken
pilgrimages to. So this is interesting for a lot of reasons.
They've found a lot of butchered bones and artifacts in
this area that shouldn't be around for like a hundred miles,

(29:41):
which kind of suggests that people came from a distance.
Can no like um like plant materials, and well, if
if it's if it's a if it's butchered bones, that
means it's the animal carcasses that you know, they're rather
either doing sacrifices or they were showing down. That would

(30:02):
actually that would actually you know, discredit my concern about
the carbon dating, because if it's animal bones, you can
carbon date the heck out of those. It's not just
animal bones, but it's bones. There's lots of bones. Um.
They think it was a cult of the dead type
of a place, which is um instead of worshiping gods

(30:25):
or anything like that, you bring your dead to this place,
probably like wrapped in like you know, shrouds basically, yeah,
and then they animal the animals would just watch over
your ancestors carbon animals. Um. The problem with this is
they haven't found any tombs. They found a lot of bones,

(30:45):
like sacrifice bones, animal, but they haven't found any tombs
anything that looks like an intentional burying of dead people,
which it's been clearly documented that you know, thousands of
years prior to this, chro magnut man, Homo sapiens all
started burying their dead in like a field position, So

(31:09):
that's like that we've already had that in our history.
So the problem with the idea of a tomb situations,
they haven't found any tombs the whole. The whole problem
with that theory too is that it's dangerous to be
around the rotting corps for very long, especially back in
those days. Yeah, so I think that people probably would
have buried their dead and maybe made a pilgrimage later
on to pay respect to them at this place. Yeah.

(31:30):
So there are a couple other really interesting things that
happened like near this site. One of them is that
really close to this area, Genesis have traced the first
like DNA of domesticated wheat to this area, like within
twenty miles of this hill, So that would have been
like the first instance of agriculture in our history. So yeah,

(31:51):
an indication that there was some sort of civilization. Actually,
there was some kind of shift in societal norms happening here.
This is really the first place that you see that happen. Um.
There's also kind of some speculation that it's the first
accounts of animal husbandry. One of the things they talk
about a lot is that up until now, in like

(32:12):
the paintings that you see, the cave painting stuff like that,
any animal that's depicted is pretty much depicted in a
state of like either attacking somebody or being attacked by somebody,
so as in like a hunter gatherer society. Yeah, it's
in the hunt or you know, they're hunting you or
you're hunting it. And this is the first instance of

(32:32):
animals being depicted, even predatory animals like you know, we
said one of those reliefs looks just like a jaguar
or something, animals that are traditionally you know, against us
being depicted in just like a normal passive state. Um,
which is also kind of interesting. So they're talking about
this maybe being the first instance of domesticated animals in

(32:53):
this kind of situation, or at least a shift in
thinking towards what animals might be for us, if that
makes sense. Yeah, they could be allies and not just
enemies or food. Yeah. And again this is one of
those those things in this story that that got me
thinking about how we look at this stuff, because I'll

(33:14):
be honest, I remember looking one of the photos and
the photo said this is a fox, and I looked
at it and I thought, that's a big, ugly lizard.
It didn't look like a fox time. I thought it
looked like a rock exactly. I mean, and that's really
an interesting thing too. But so it What it got
me thinking though, is that from our point of view today,

(33:38):
because of the way that information goes, we know what
just about every creator in the world looks like, but
at that time they didn't. So they may have been
trying to depict something else, whether it be you know,
I in the dark, I saw this thing and it's

(33:59):
this mytho Lodge school. Whatever that they've built is something around,
a story around. But to us, we're going, oh, it's
a cute little fox. I totally get it. It's exactly
the word I'm looking for is we're projecting what we
know onto it. Yeah, and we can talk a little
bit about that. Um. I have some stuff to say

(34:21):
about that, a little bit, um. But it's true that
there there are carvings of animals that, like, you look
at and you're like, what that doesn't exist in Turkey
and it never has and it's fairly clearly an animal
like Anyways, we'll get into that. Okay, no, no, no no,
that's totally fine. Um. So one of the other things

(34:42):
is that a lot of people are saying these are
depictions of gods, which is kind of a problem because
it's five thousand years too early, although it's the same
place Mesopotamia, right, the Fertile Crescent was too early for
what too early for God's, it's too early for God. Um.
This is the first time, I mean the fully formed

(35:03):
depiction of a God that sits in this guy. We've
had idols, right, and we've had ancestors before then, but
not gods. It's a really big anthropological like discussion, um
that happens. But essentially five about five thousand years later
in Mesopotamia we see the first instance of God's. So

(35:27):
when you say it's too early for gods, what you're
saying is that we don't have any record of people
recording these beings that they're worshiping, or any or any
implication that they are worshiping anything. There's been a cult
of the dead for a long time. As like a
reverence to your ancestors. There's some you know, using of idols,

(35:51):
sort of you know, recognizing that there are things that
are bigger than us, but like a fully formed idea
of like a god, like an omni patent sort of
being above us that maybe created us, a creator situation
that apparently doesn't exist until much later. So again, yeah,

(36:14):
pretty much. Um, So there's a kind of a sub
theory on this, and that's the Ryan sub theory. It
basically says that this is a constellation, the constellation. Yeah,
and there's a lot of discussion that we'll talk about
later that every monolithic stone thing from the past ages
was to Ryan. Okay, fine, you know, fine, but Ryan

(36:39):
is pretty prevalent in the sky, especially at this time
of our of our planet's history. So they talk about
we're talking about a little bit earlier with the arms,
and um, there's a there are some of the carvings
that have like belts, like really clear belts on them.
Some looks like a belt like about but if they

(37:02):
were modeling after Orion's belt, wouldn't it just be three dots? Yeah,
because they wouldn't have belts like us, So that the
things that looked like a belt. Yeah. I mean so,
like even the people who are kind of making this claim,
I feel like it's a really weak theory right now.
It's kind of like an idea they're throwing out there,
and you know, it seems to be in the really

(37:23):
early stages and they're kind of saying, well, you know,
we could see it being this but we don't really know,
We don't really have any good information on it yet.
So we're just gonna like throw it out there and
if people connect the dots for us, great. If we
continue to find information that connects the dots, great, But yeah,
all right, Yeah, the problem I had with this theory

(37:44):
is that we we know Oriyan the Constellation as Ryan
the Hunter. That's doesn't mean that people twelve thousands of
years ago I would have looked at that, that bunch
of stars and and said, oh wow, check it out
as a hunter. Yeah, it's a human I mean, there's
no reason to think. I mean, if you look at
most constant relations, they don't look anything like what they're
supposed to. It's very it's a very loose track. It's

(38:06):
extremely listen. Yeah, and there's no reason to believe that
anybody would have interpreted Ryan the Constellation as even being
a humanoid, much less being a hunter. Yeah. I mean
there's a lot of historic references to Brian being a
hunter from the Greece, the Romans, Mesopotamia. Fine, but again
yeah so, but it might do so Joe, the next

(38:31):
theories for you ancient aliens. Oh even better, Yeah, even better?
So of course, I mean, of course this is a theory, right,
I mean, of course it is. Who didn't see this coming?
You know, it's a theory for Stonehenge because people can't
figure out how Stonehenge is made, and that's like everything
there's seven thousand years later. Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, of

(38:51):
course it is. And you know, I think it does
go a little bit to towards Joe's question of like, well,
how I personally choose to believe that it's totally possible
that humans made this stuff at that point in time.
I don't think it's outrageous to think of, but I
do understand that a lot of people have a hard
time without tools, would be awfully hard to quarry stones. Sure,

(39:12):
it really would be, but or at least at least
copper or bronze or something. Yeah. So you know, one
of the big selling points of this theory is that,
as Joe mentioned, they haven't found any stone carving tools
in the site, which I think to a lot of
people's like really really like, oh my gosh, it was
aliens to me, all signs point to the making and

(39:34):
then like very frequent use of this place, right, So,
like I guess you like, if you go to a
modern church and you're like, oh man, there's so much
ornate stuff in here, but I can I can't find that.
You know, how they plated this gold in this place?
A must be aliens, you know. For me, that doesn't

(39:55):
really hold water. The other thing to think of, okay, well,
is if this is as old as they say, you
know how, one of the easy ways that you can
break rock apart is with another rock. Huh. So you
take two rocks and you start beating them against each
other and eventually they're both gonna crumble. So not in

(40:16):
that my tool gives away. Yeah. The only problem I
have with that there is is it's great for for
sort of breaking a rock down into smaller pieces, but
if you look at some of the carvings, those look
like they had to have been done with more precise
tools and just bad. But to be fair, we are
in the Stone Age. I mean like we're in the
Stone Age. But we're in the Stone Age, so you know,
we do kind of know how to work rock. I mean,

(40:38):
you find some other idols that are carved not I mean,
this is is an incredible detail amount, but you know,
I guess I'm the same thing is looking at you know,
the absidian arrowheads that we see from Native Americans and
other cultures. Those things are beauty full in their own right,

(41:01):
and they're all very precisely done with the rock. Yeah,
it's one rock against another. Knowing exactly how rock breaks,
isn't that technical? Once you've done it a couple hundred,
couple of thousand times, you just keep breaking. Oh okay,
well now I kind of understand how this is gonna
break apart. Yeah, they could have made tools also out

(41:23):
of a city, and they could have you know, they
could have made carving tools out of the city and
not had to have bronze or copper or whatever. It
just means that, you know, you're gonna be spending a
hell of a lot of time carving out your T
shaped rock and the quarry. Yeah, I mean so that
you know, again it's like, well it might have been
you know, I mean thinking back to those times, you know,
think about this, you know, your grandfather actually started working

(41:43):
on quarry and this T shaped rock, you know, and
and you're like done, Okay, we're getting close to done here,
you know, and yeah, it's it's still not quite corried out. Yeah,
it's that's a big mystery for sure, And I think
that that really helps to explain why people are so
prone to going to something like ancient aliens, because it
makes much more sense to a lot of people to say, oh, yeah,

(42:07):
they use plasma cutting tools. Yeah, the alien laser cut
it apart with that, then we targeted by hand from there.
I nobody sort of chipped it up so to make
it look like ancient cut of by alien plasma. Yeah,
so they're as you know, Steve was kind of saying
a little bit this the next like part of this
is a little more solid to me. Um, you see

(42:28):
things in these carvings, like geese. They're pretty clearly geese.
I when you look at it and you're like, that's
definitely a goose, which never existed in Turkey, nor do
they have any records of it ever having existed in Turkey.
So people talk about like, well, I was aliens because
aliens were like, hey, carve a thing that looks like this,

(42:48):
that exists a lot in the world. I think that
actually feeds like a theory that I have a little later,
a little better than the ancient alien theory, but that
it seems to get kind of like clumped in there
with aliens. You know, let's let's let's not say that
it's a goose per se. But if you see birds

(43:09):
flying around all the time, there are birds that have
big bodies, and they're birds that have long necks and
big wings, and there's all kinds of birds around that
are like that. Marn't necessarily geese. So it could be
that it was some indigenous bird that has died out
or was hunted out, or god knows it was might

(43:32):
have been the dodo for all I know. But you actually,
you know, it could be also that the aliens look
like geese. It could be it's true. Yeah, I guess.
I I don't want to belabor this too much. I'm
just saying that I don't buy that it's goose. That's fair.
I think, you know, they're more in There are other instances.

(43:53):
But again, you know, like we don't know, like what
was there then, you know, so maybe they're we don't
know what wasn't there. The whole the whole Middle East
being the cradle of civilization, everything was subjected to quite
a bit of environmental abuse. And it used to be
forest land and grassland, and now it's basically a desert.

(44:14):
Because yeah, they you knows it totally. So I'm sure
there were a lot more animals living there back in
the back of the day. Yeah. So that's one of
the things they talked about is that like this would
have been a really beautiful place, this hill, it would
have looked over like this really beautiful like paradise plan
and you know, the Black Sea was like way higher,
and there was this ice thing that was like a

(44:36):
couple of thousand miles away that really like it just
it was beautiful. Apparently it was a paradise. It was.
It was a paradise. So the next theory that I
want to talk about, because we're on crazy theories right now,
is that the Robert M. Shots is probably how you
pronounce that. He the who who knows he's an associate

(45:02):
professor of Natural Sciences at the College of General Studies.
In the College of General Study, it is a two
year non degree granting unit of the Boston University. So
take this with a grain of salt. Ye, wouldn't that
be embarrassing? I have agreed from those guys I was

(45:23):
accepted here. You're not that um. So he thinks that
there's a connection with the Easter Island and also Um
thinks that Stone Stonehenge is also connected. He thinks basically
like every single monolithic prehistoric site is all connected, that
they were all built at the same time, including the Pyramids.

(45:46):
And oh well, so he comes in with like a
theory that I'm going to talk about next that is uh, yeah,
he kind of partners with this other guy at this
opper theory. We're we're in the crazy theories. Guys were
in the crazy part, deep in the crazies. So he's
quoted as saying, both the moi and the anthropomorphic central

(46:11):
pillars of goldbeck A Tepe have arms and hands positions
similarly against the body, with hands and fingers extended over
the belly and naval region. The moi are looking at
the sky, and I believe the goldbeck A Tepe pillars
are also looking towards the skies. Are they looking at
identical phenomenon? So he thinks that there are these things

(46:33):
called plasma events, which is a thing that we have
on Earth. It's a real thing. Yeah, essentially, it's we
see a lot of as lightning or like aurora borealist um.
But apparently, uh, they used to be way more frequent
and they would have been way more apparent. Wait wait
what why would they have been more frequent? Well, so

(46:54):
I guess this like a little bit makes sense to
me that like the sun was still settled. I mean,
this is a long time ago, and yet it's like
a long time after the creation of the universe, but
it's still a long time ago. The Sun was a
little more volatile. Apparently, you know, it's you know, in
terms of the history of the Sun, though, I mean,
twelve thousand years ago is basically basically basically like late

(47:15):
this morning, not even late this morning. It was like
it was like maybe six o'clock. For whatever reason, the
Sun was more like volatile in the period. Ostensibly, this
is again, this is just what I could find on
this theory from this dude. Like I I'm not saying
that it's right or wrong, but apparently they were more

(47:37):
He also said, it's more solar flares, is what I'm getting. Yeah,
I guess it's entirely possible the Sun did go to
a period of like a lot of intense solar flares,
like you've heard about the Carrington event, correct, I think
it was eighteen fifty six the sun this Yeah, the
suns the sun like speed out a huge solar flare
which hit the Earth. Um and by the way, we

(47:58):
should be gearing up for another one because it's going
to happen against sooner or later. But this big solar
flare hits the planet and basically a lot of borealist
type stuff in the sky. But it also fried what
we what little we had in terms of electronic sandwich
basically was maybe telegraph lines, but telegraph office is caught
on fire and stuff like that. I mean, our crude

(48:20):
infrastructure was was kind of kind of destroyed. Yeah, and
so imagine what would happen today. Really, it's a lot
of solar activity our atmosphere. Yeah, over a period of
I'm guessing hundreds of years, there's a lot of it
going on. To I got her, this kind of it

(48:42):
would have to go on for a while. Yeah. The
there's this other guy named Anthony Parrott and he's a
lost alamos plasma physicist and they apparently have established that
there are some petroglyphs that have been found worldwide that
record a really intense plasma event or events in prehistory. Uh.

(49:04):
He's determined that powerful plasma phenomenon observed in the skies
take on characteristic shapes resembling humanoid figures and humans with birdheads,
sets of rings or doughnut shapes, and writing snakes or serpents.
I'm not buying that, which are just Yeah, can I
say projection once again? Yeah, yeah, you totally can't. So
they also addressed the backfield. This is the only theory

(49:25):
that really addresses the back Okay, okay, I'm game for this.
So basically they say, you know there were roofs on there.
They say they back build it so that they would
be protected from the plasma events. So, yeah, they built
these things because of some for some reason, because they
thought in the sky, and they decided to build hundreds
of years quarrying rocks that are like and then they

(49:48):
decided to like fill them into protect them from those
sames things that they built them for because they understood
that it was radiation and that if you're underground you
could have a fallout shelter. Yeah, okay, well I just
don't all board of that. No, I don't like that theory.
So to go along with this theory, there's another theory.
It's called the third party theory. It's been developed by
this man named Graham Hancock. He's a mother culture proponent

(50:13):
and according to his Wikipedia site, he specializes in quote
unconventional theories. What is mother culture? So it's this theory, okay, Okay,
I didn't know if it was something different. No, it's
all the same, um so as it pertains to like
Goldbecky tepee, but it also pertains to like a lot

(50:34):
of basically everything that this other guy was saying. They're
all connected. This guy says, um that there's this long
forgotten third like branch of humanity that evolved way faster
than we did and did all of this stuff and
then was just wiped out ten thousand years ago and
we forgot about them, and they built this thing that

(50:54):
makes sense? Right. Actually, I feel really bad, okay, because
when I was reading this and everybody was saying, well,
van wasn't evolved enough. I started looking in and wondering, well,
when did the chromas go away? Well, the chromags went
away thirty thou years ago, so it couldn't have been them.
So then I was saying, well, maybe it was some

(51:16):
culture that I didn't necessarily think that it was some
offshoot of humanity in terms of another Homo Sapien line.
But what if it was some culture that was isolated
from all their hunter gather warring neighbors for whatever reason.
They start to move along and evolve and use tools,

(51:37):
and do these things become really peaceful and they can
you know, they can cultivate grain and all that stuff,
and then they build the whole thing and then everybody
finds them, but they're peaceful. So everybody else is going,
you're freaking me out. I'm gonna hit you with my
acts because that's what I do to things that freaked

(51:58):
me out. But talking about for this one site, right,
because this theory pertains to literally every monolithic I'm saying
just I'm just saying, go back, okay, and I'm willing to,
like a little bit get on board with you on
that as far as and we're saying it's just this
one thing. But he says, even the Pyramids were built
at the same time as all this other stuff, because
it looks like there was rain damage to it, and

(52:20):
the only time that Egypt has ever had rain that
much was in ten thousand years ago, so obviously they
were built ten thousand years ago, along with the Moi
at Easter Island, along with all of the stuff down
in South America, all of the oh eight, nothing in
North America because we're not special, you know. So he says,
it's like all of these were created by this like

(52:41):
Mother culture, which I think a lot of people kind
of retribute to the ancient Aliens and the Mother culture.
So the Mother Culture was basically all over the world.
So he was a a offshoot not humans, but an
offshoot of humanity that spread and then died for some reason.
And just a beer didn't look any different from us

(53:02):
on a bone structure level or a DNA level or
anything like that. Right, But if they were that sophist good,
they should have left a lot more ruins. Well, no,
they were. They were using the those awesome skimmers that
you get from the Aliens. Yeah, and so what was

(53:22):
what was the movie? It was the Flash Gordon skimmers.
They were jumping for all over the world and then
rebuilding their new and building their new sites. That's what
it is, Ah Gordon Wake, Runners of the Sky. It is.
So now we're gonna come anyway, not to address that
your theory that these guys have built go Beckley Tempe

(53:46):
or a peaceful culture that's just highly unlikely. I mean,
you know, they were like, you know, it's it's kind
of like if you're a rabbit and you're in the woods,
living in the woods, and and you decide, you and
your your bust of rabbits decide, Hey, you know, we're
not gonna sweat this whole predator thing. We're just gonna, like,
you know, go out and eat our grass and just
pretend like they don't I mean the whole thing. I mean,

(54:07):
man lived in this environment of scarcity and conflict and warfare.
I mean that's our history, that's that's in our DNA.
So the idea of a peaceful culture somehow popping up,
it's like kind of hard to believe. But you could
mean maybe on an island they could be isolated. Because
if you think about if you ever looked at the
maps and again this is something that I saw, let's

(54:29):
say in the chro magnet man. Is if you look
at where chromagnet man was, and then you look where
home and Homo sapiens started. Knowing how we encroached in,
it might have been that these guys were just kind
of in a pocket. Have you ever been in the
woods and you came across something and you realize that
there's an old tractor park there that's probably been there

(54:52):
for fifty or seventy years and nobody's messed with it.
It's just kind of a random spot. It could be
that they were just in a lucky zone that nobody
had gone to for whatever reason. And it's plausible. I'm
not saying that's what it is, but I think it's
plausible that a group of people could live in an
area for an extended period of time and never be found.

(55:15):
I mean, we're finding people in South America today still
they still have no clue who the hell we are. Yeah, yeah,
but but yeah again and that and that's possible. But
those cultures aren't going to be by any sense advanced
because any culture that's that isolated, where it's just a
small pocket of people off somewhere there, you know what,

(55:36):
in isolation from the rest of humanity, with no trading
back and forth of ideas and stuff, then you simply
don't advantage. It was the prehistoric engineers. It was a
group of engineers. Yeah, it could have been dropped back
in time. Okay, I'm sorry making fun that's a that's
a good point, though it might be it might be that, uh,
and this might be they might have been predisposed to,

(55:58):
you know, figuring things out like that rather than just
going with the status quo. And this is well, you know,
imagine this how this ties in with the city atom
and legend. Say, these two really really hyperintelligent people somehow
find each other copyright, have children, start a little tribe
of very smart people, and they do actually wind up
doing all kinds of amazing things. We're going to talk

(56:20):
about that, are we I ain't kind of a little bit. Yeah,
so we're gonna talk about that because we have arrived
at the biblical theories. So there's I guess we'll just
go We'll just go into it and then we'll have
the discussions as we go. Do that noise exactly? Awesome? Yeah,

(56:41):
So the first one is a Noah's Ark theory. No,
I think it's totally fair. I mean, I think it's
a pretty easy leap to make, right. I mean, it's
like this large, huge collection of animals for prehistoric time
from what a lot of people identify as a biblical
time right in the in the biblical land. Okay, all right,

(57:04):
I can kind of see how this is again getting
back to the variety of animals that are carved in
the stone. Yeah pretty much. Okay, so this this is
where this theory is being lent from. Yeah, just so
I get my frame. Are So it's you know, like
a lot of animals, a lot of animals that probably
aren't really from around there as far as we can tell.
And again, who knows what was there? What wasn't how

(57:25):
much we're projecting, you know, find whatever? And gold back
to Tepe is like three and fifty miles from where
Biblical scholars are pretty sure that Noah's ark would have
ended up. You know, if you kind of look at
the Bible stories as parables, kind of accepting this place
as a place that everybody was like, oh hey, that
totally existed. Uh, you know, there are a lot of

(57:47):
problems with this theory. It's not it's not a really
sound theory. Okay. Wait, so in in it's been a
long time since I've read the Bible, and I will
admit this. Uh, where was Where was Noah from? Was
he from harang? You know what? As far as I
can tell, he was from Mesopotamia at the general area.
I mean, I think I don't. I it's also been

(58:09):
a while for me to be honest with you, and
I don't recall it being in my research, I didn't
see anything where they were like and he was from here,
so blah blah blah. I think the more important part
of the whole story is like where he ended up
now where he started because he was in the flood.
I mean, like, are you kidding me? He's on this
giant boat in the flood flood the whole world or

(58:30):
maybe just the whole world, and but okay, like the
whole world. It flooded, and then they ended up someplace,
which sounds way more interesting when you say it that
way than that John Cusack movie about it. Yeah, that
was so bad. I never thought anyway. So, so where

(58:52):
are they saying that that Noah's came to rest, his
ship came to risk at gate Temper? I mean, you know,
it's if you take it as like most people kind
of take those stories as parables at this point, right,
Like Noah probably didn't really make a giant arc. Yeah,

(59:12):
so that this would have been some sort of like
representation of the arc of the preserving of all of
the species that were there at that time, which is
a fair thing to say about it because essentially even
it maybe somebody it was like it was kind of
like a smithsonian istude or something something like that, kind
of like just keeping like a recording of everything. Yeah,

(59:33):
you mentioned her On though, and he is another big one.
They're the two big ones that everybody talks about. And
Heran they think is like twenty five miles from Gobeck
a Tepe, so they're really really close, Yeah, really close.
There are some problems with this one is the like,
Abraham was a pretty smart guy and he lived in
her On, and he if this were a Noah's Ark situation,

(59:59):
the theories a little confused, but like he would have
known about this place, but the flood happened after Abraham,
so he wouldn't have known about this place. But Abraham
definitely didn't exist in ten thousand BC and this place
and this place would have been long buried. So that's
not so much of a problem for me, except that
Bob Ballard did this expedition in the Black Sea and

(01:00:21):
he found a bunch of stuff, a lot of really
amazing stuff that was it was mostly like flooded houses
and stuff that people would have lived in. They found,
they found an old they found old shore lines. Yeah, yeah,
and it's a it's a really deep black sea is
really deep, so yeah, I bet it used to be
a lot smaller than it is. Yeah, it used to

(01:00:43):
be way smaller than the ice cap. Whatever. Anyways, a
flood actually happened in that area, but it happened in
five thousand BC, and people kind of except that that's
when like Noah's flood would have happened, is five thousand BC,
which is five thousand years later. Then our are a
little temple, which couldn't possibly be So it sounds like

(01:01:04):
I had again, this is a convenient marrying of two stories.
And the next is Joe was kind of hinting at earlier,
is that this is the historical site of the parableistic
Garden of Eden. So okay, So most people again except

(01:01:25):
that the Garden of Eden story is a parable it's
not an actual thing that happened that, Like God didn't
actually like reach out of the sky and and from
dirt create one single man and then from his rib
create one single woman. Most people kind of exact that
it was kind of the moment when we turned from
the hunter gatherer society into kind of a more agricultural

(01:01:48):
society kind of gained the knowledge of right and wrong.
And that's and that's when we became when when with
the apple and everything, we became the knowledge of good
and evil. In other words, would be we became more
than animals. We became people human who were able to
understand what our actions were all about. And therefore, you know,
we couldn't just I catch this, like you know, if
I'm a wolf, I can go devour another creature. And

(01:02:11):
while I'm not a murderer, I'm just a wolf. I'm
a human being, and I go kill another human being, Well,
I'm a murder because I know better. And that's that's
what it's all about, because you recognize that it's another
person and it's not just some preying Yeah. Yeah, it's
like it's like and and so the whole gist of
that is that is that that's our intelligence is also
our curse. That's the ancient wisdom, is that I'm even

(01:02:32):
the Bible. Yeah, and you know, most people kind of
accept that it was a thing that actually happened in
human history. It was kind of an event. To add
to this, the Bible has kind of like vague coordinates,
like it's between two rivers for the actual well, we're
in the two rivers, which it says which two rivers,

(01:02:53):
and it kind of talks about the land mass, and
previously biblical historians had placed it within fifty mils of
where gold back at Tepe is. That's really i mean,
like of all of the places in the world, that's
really pretty close to the pin. Yeah. And again, you know,
like the Fertile Crescent Mesopotamia, there's not all like a
whole you kind of you know, you put it up
on the dartboard and you're pretty close to everywhere. People

(01:03:19):
are kind of talking about it being like a geographical
turning point, like the place where we came together as
Homo sapiens and realized that there was maybe something more
than just killing everything became like what we would call
fully human, and we were more than just running around
and chasing critters down and eating everything we found, we
could make it ourselves and cultivating. Yep. So you know,

(01:03:43):
that was kind of the thing that we were talking
about a little bit earlier, that this place was really
like paradise at that point. I mean, you know, it
looked beautiful, unled, it was totally unspoiled. There were there
was everything we needed. There were rivers, there were fish,
there were you know, like massive amounts of wheat and

(01:04:03):
stuff like that that we could cultivate, and there were
animals that we could turn into herds, and we could
become shepherds. And it seems like it would have been
like if there was gonna be a place for this
historical turning point in our revolution, this would have been it.
It's you know, it's conceivable. You know, there's a theory
that originally, the old theory is that Egypt had a

(01:04:26):
very advanced, wealthy society and then they decided to build
the pyramids. And yet there's another theory that essentially the
building of the pyramids actually drew people in from the
countryside and got people learning skills and stuff. And actually
that's in a sense is what kick started and created
Egyptian society and their civilization. Basically, the city had jobs,

(01:04:47):
which is what we see today in all over the
world is what we go to the city because there's jobs,
and then you learn and so yeah, and so and so.
It sort of reverses that whole thing and the and
and it is a possibility if you can sort of
see this idea that the building of the thing, which
would have been a monumental o' taking back in those states,
would have drawn people in from all over and and

(01:05:11):
actually created a civilizy. It actually could have been the
kernel of the civilization, which of course is long and
long since died out. And that and that's a that's
a compelling theory. Except where did where did all the
buildings go? Maybe they're still buried somewhere, they probably are,
but that that's the interesting thing, is that there there
should be villages surrounding this thing. Maybe they're there and

(01:05:32):
they're still just buried and we haven't found him yet. Yeah,
I mean, as we said, they've only astivated what they
estimate to be five percent of this place. I mean,
maybe it turns out that all the rest of the
things were actually like living facilities or working facilities or something,
or with tense or if you think about if intense
is kind of where I'm going, if you think about

(01:05:54):
a lot of major cities in third world countries where
they have very advanced building technology, but that everybody goes
home to a very poor, ragged society. Right, it's well,
and you know today's skin, but back then it may

(01:06:15):
have been seven sticks and a couple of pieces of
high hung up, and you had this barrio, for lack
of a better term, all around it. That's where everybody
lived in their kind of barrio Tens City. And when
you were done, every oh, well, he laughed, I'm gonna
take his stick, and I'm gonna take that stick and
take this skin. And then of course they break down

(01:06:37):
and they wear out and they get beat down, and
that would explain why there's no record of this stuff,
because it was so thin is the word I can
come to mind, but just so short lived that of
course we can't find it so well. No, but but
I mean, the thing about it is is people leave,
People leave junk behind. People have garbage stumps and things
like that. If if I were, if I were an

(01:06:59):
archaeologist and I we're working on this project, you be
looking for USB drive, Yeah yeah, and now I would
you know, I would be I would be looking for
the nearest spring, the nearest creek, the nearest river where
probably people would have set up camp and built their
villages and stuff. And I would be looking for garbage
dumps and just looking for a residue of human beings.

(01:07:21):
But I think that's the difficult. If it's been years,
that's going to be hard. Everything's moved. Yeah, it's also
not uninhabited. There are people who have been living here.
It's literally like the cradle of civilization. Hundreds of different
communities have come and lived in spaces like this. The
reason they found this place is because a shepherd, that is,

(01:07:42):
sheep wandering over it. I mean as possible. I mean,
I don't know where the nearest village is in relation
to this. How far a mile? Two miles? Yea far? Yeah, so,
I mean that village might actually have been one of
the villages of this little civil civilization that built the
side maybe you know, built there's an airport away. I

(01:08:03):
mean it's not yea possible. That's why we need to
go into those villages and basically kick the people out
and start excavating. I think that's probably fair. Yeah, that
sounds were still going to be on society committee, Joe.
That's all the theories, but I guess you know, they're
just so. I mean, they're the stories of like why
and how why? Why did they fill them in? Who knows?

(01:08:26):
That's That's the thing that throws me every stinking time
that I review this story. Is why in the hell
did somebody fill it in? Yeah, and I know I
said this before, but I can only see that one
culture built it and another culture was scared of them.

(01:08:47):
And let's say they considered him demons or something they
were gods or I don't care which way you go
with it, but there was some hesitation to just destroy
what they had made because of the backlash. So you
fill it in. Well, it was pretty much until pretty
recently in human history, whenever you um overthrew another city

(01:09:09):
or overthrew another people, you always raised their city and
murdered all the inhabitants. And so in this case, it's like, well,
it's not exactly a city, it's kind of underground a
little bit, so we'll just fill it instead. That's good enough.
But I think I think another possibility is that the
people have built this and thinking of course this is
a long term project, they might have intended to actually

(01:09:30):
put a roof on this thing of stone. So I mean,
if you and if you look at those those those
T shaped stones that are by the way, we're set
in holes in the ground. Every hold them up right
and everything, they look like they look like freeway supports.
Almost you know what I'm talking about. If they do,
they look like something that was built to support a span.
Something that's something that somebody at some point was planning

(01:09:51):
on coming and setting a big slab of rock on
top of you to make a roof for that. Well,
that's where the mother ship. Yeah, that's that too. If
you wanted to do that, the logistics of it our daunting.
The the easiest way to do it, I would think,
would be to fill in that whole area around them.
Then you wheel in your slab and muscle on top
of that thing, and then afterwards, when you're all done,

(01:10:12):
you scoop the fill out again and waha, you've got
your thing. But of course, ancient civilizations like our own
civiliation civilization today, being fragile and subject to disruption and
even extinction. Uh, Somewhere between the filling in and actually
the quarrying of this big piece to go on top,
something happened and the project never got completed. Another possibility

(01:10:35):
is that they got the roof on there, and then
somebody else came along afterwards after they were extinct and
wanted to salvage those big slabs of stone for some
of their project, so they filled it in just to
facilitate getting the stones down, the big slabs of stone.
I like the idea that, um, it's preservation. I think
we as humans, we don't tend to destroy things that

(01:10:58):
we perceive is very important. I mean, we tend to
destroy things we perceived as important to other people. That
tell other people. Yeah, but if we if we think
they're important. I mean it's you know, things like the Pyramids. Yeah, okay,
there was like marble on their once, right, and like, okay,
we stripped that off, but like we didn't destroy, like
demolish them. That would have been a major undertaking. It

(01:11:21):
would have been a major undertaking to destroy these things too, right.
I just think, you know, in my like beautiful utopian world, right,
this is the Garden of Eden, and we've just like
and then we're like, oh man, we should keep this,
Like people are gonna want to know about this, all right,
let's start it, let's let's fill it in. I understand
that's like it's totally a bad theory, but like in

(01:11:46):
my brain, in my like little fantasy world, that's totally
what happened. Okay, Yeah, I think I think that either
somebody wanted to destroy them by by burying them, or
somebody had a practical purpose in doing it. That's fair.
What do you think you you just look angry. No,
I don't. I don't look angry. I just there's there's

(01:12:07):
and and as with everything, there's a piece missing that
doesn't add up for me. I've already said my piece
of I don't buy into the age of these things
based on the evidence that we can find. But I do. I.
I find it intriguing an odd that the whole thing
was filled in, but I don't know why, and so

(01:12:30):
I don't know which way to go. I mean again,
I I kind of feel like one group built it,
and another group founded and were mystified and either revered
or afraid of that first group back filled it. Because
the back field is the big mystery to me. Yeah,
not why the hell did somebody build us in the
first place? Why did somebody Because I can only imagine

(01:12:53):
the size of this site. That had to take a
long time to fill this in, and not just fill
it in, but you gotta overfill it because anybody who's
filled in a whole nose that which means that you
know you've got us just cover tons and tons of
material over so that's where the big mystery for me

(01:13:15):
is maybe they were scared of falling in. They didn't
want to fall in inuld could they were afraid of lawyers. Yeah,
I was like, oh my god, we can get sued. Yeah,
you're in the future. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Those guys
of stoneheage, they're taking their own risk, but not us.
That's why. But that's why I think that in my theory,

(01:13:36):
and it's still probably incredibly fallible, but the idea that
they somebody filled it in just so they could spirit
away those big slabs of stone, which, by the way,
what do you think about it? The slabs of stone
they would have taken to span those things would have
been huge. But and if I think, if you have
somebody take the time to cut it up for you
ahead of time, yeah, yeah, it's pretty awesome. So if anybody,

(01:13:58):
if you come along and you're looking at those things
and you think, and how can we salvage those things?
We can either we can get down to that some
quarry and we can spend fifty years chiseling these things
out of the rock. We can get them out of here,
getting them out by filling in that whole thing and
spiriting them away would probably be a much easier job
than inquirying them yourself. And so that's that's kind of

(01:14:19):
why I'm thinking, either somebody and did that to salvage
those things, or they did that because that in order
to get them on there to begin with. And of
course it's a share pure speculation, and I'm probably totally
full of it. So that's all the theories. And we
already talked about what we like and what we don't like. Aliens,
maybe probably plasma events, I don't know, Yeah, that's the

(01:14:42):
plasma event thing. It was the mother race that that's that.
That is one of the most far flown theories. Rather,
I just even I couldn't. I try to be the
pregmatist of the group maybe, but even I'm like, no,
I can't find the idea that seven is going to

(01:15:03):
look up at the s guy see a bunch of
Aurora borealis events and thing, Wow, let's go carve a
ton of stone out and build a thing. Yeah that
looks exactly like a bird. Yeah yeah yeah. And and
of course remember these things must have taken a long
long time. Yeah, And so at some point somebody to say,
why are we doing this exactly. Yeah, Dad, why have

(01:15:23):
I been doing this for the last seven years because
I told you to? Yeah, we had to light to
the sky, that's it, because I thought once maybe exactly.
So you know, so this is big, big mystery. We've
been doing a lot of mysteries. Yeah, yeah, I guess
we do. Yeah. I think that ancient man really liked

(01:15:47):
carving stone a lot. You know, it was his pastime.
Invented soccer yet, yeah, you know, like well, you know
when I was in Peru and I was looking at
there's these incredible stone work creations that they made, these
incredible walls and stuff like that, and the amount of
care it must have taken, and I thought to myself,

(01:16:08):
you know, why did they do this? And my then
that the only theory I could come out that was
plausible is that this was their form of art. This
was this This was like they didn't have like painting
and all this other stuff. This was what everybody was into.
It was like, wow, these really awesome walls. Think about
it this way, though, is that if you look at
it from an art standpoint, I can do watercolors on paper,

(01:16:33):
or I can do oil paintings on canvas, which one
degrades and falls apart. First, what our color on paper?
Paper falls apart, especially paper at the time. So I
can carve a log and I can do beautiful work,
but that means that it's gonna be outside and it's
going to be displayed for everybody to see, and that's
gonna fall apart. Don't fall apart within ten years at

(01:16:57):
the outside, it'll of degree at it completely. So that
means the only way that I can show my reverence
is to do it and show my artistic ability. Used
to put it in something permanent, which would be stone.
So that's to me, that would be a logical reason
why to you stone all time? Yeah, I mean it
was just what people were into. You know, it was there,

(01:17:19):
it was their art form, it was and you know,
I guess it's just so interesting to see something as
a large scale as this. Yeah, you know, maybe it
was just like a giant art exhibit, but it's a
big art exhibit, very big, you know on this one. Yeah,
oh they have Yeah. So anyways, that's a Tempe, very

(01:17:43):
cool Tempe. We've been mangling it all my I think
it's that's what it is. Okay, it's Turkish anyway, we
have solved them as sure, So it was aliens. Okay,
so yeah, you can put your money on that. Yes
it was aliens. Right, So thank you Joe for solving

(01:18:06):
that mystery for us. Ar'll just disband. So if you
want to see any of the pictures, because I know
we've been talking about a lot of stuff that you
kind of just have to see to understand. Um, if
you want to see any of the links that we
have anything like that, you visit our website that's Thinking
Sideways podcast dot com. If you have information to give

(01:18:28):
to us, if you have gripes about the information that
I have presented, which I'm sure you will, or if
you're an alien, or if you're an alien who created
this thing, please contact us at Thinking Sideways podcast at
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If you are, please give us a rating and a comment.
We like to hear from you. Also, take a look

(01:18:51):
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You don't even download it, you just stream it and
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so far that like us. It's I know there are million,

(01:19:17):
three million. No, they're going to go there and they're
gonna see there's like three people. It's fine, it doesn't matter.
We're not doing a popularity contest. We're just presenting awesome
stuff and we know that you love us and we
love you, and we just want to talk to some
like Barney there for a second. We're no, we're just
like the overly attached girlfriend of podcasts is always happening

(01:19:38):
right now. You sendty you sound like Barnie. Yeah, I
don't know. I guess that's everything. So on that note,
I'm going to say goodbye and we'll see you next week. Goodbye.

(01:19:59):
We'll talk to into her body.