Ep. 245 - The Sketch Artist

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Big Food and be on with Cliffand Bobo. These guys are your favorites,
so like say subscribe and rade it. I'm stuck and me and listening,
oh watching good limb always keep itsquatching. And now you're hosts Cliff

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Berrickman and James Boobo Fay, Goodday Boobo. How are you doing?
Good day, sir, I'm excellent, excellent. Where are you right now?
Because you're you're still not at homeright You're in southern California, believe
Yeah, I'm still in southern California. How's that going? Man? You've
been down there for a couple ofweeks now, yeah, what have you
got got going down there? Iknow you've been out in the woods,
you've been seeing friends. What somebodtell us about it? See, I

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didn't get out for one night.I went down and met Brian, the
guy that was in you guys documenton the Bigfoot of the Border. Oh
yeah, we of course we didan episode just a few weeks ago with
this guy, right, yeah,Brian, Yeah, then he was on
he was on the terrain when youget down. I mean I've been down
there before, not to his place, but in the general area, and
I did that it was pretty good, but I didn't realize how good,

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like how I mean, I knewit was good, but I didn't know
it was really really good habitat forhim. And there's a lot of remote
sections out there. Rugged I wasalways like, yeah, it's a place
to go to look for him,you know, especially in the winter or
you know, I mean, welllater summer would be better when there's less
water. But there's a good amountof springs out there and stuff like that.
But there's the vegetation is a lotbigger than you. When you look

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from the air like on Google togo like, oh man, you can
just you know, you'd be ableto see anything around there, But that's
not the case. It's it's prettydense and unlike the East Coast, and
like a lot of places and otherdeciduous trees, the trees down there,
the vast majority of them don't losetheir leaves, so it stays leafy,
hard to see through. And thenI can't remember if Eli showed it on

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the movie or not, but whenyou look on it from Google Earth on
his property, it looks really small, like how can they be coming through
there? Like, and there's noways too there's not enough cover, and
you get there on the ground inperson, and I think it's eleven points
something acres and you can definitely saythey'd be traversing through there. And then
we did hear that, and thenwe were there for like the coldest night,

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because the cold they've had that propertyover thirty years forty I guess almost
forty years, and it was itwas the coldest night they've been out there
for. And uh, I gotfrozen into the back of my truck.
Had to wait till the sun hitthe truck to warm it up enough to
get open the shell with you know, pop open up in the back that

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like the handles on the Siour frozenshot and it was big because it rained
and then it cleared up and wentdown to like twenty five degrees and did
a hard freeze and you're you're don'texpecting to get you know, twenty five
degrees in San Diego, No.So when you say you got frozen in
the back of your truck, I'mpictureing they had to get like chisels and
stuff to get you out and hammerlike a ice away, like you're like
the Minnesota iceman or something. Isthat about, right? Dude, I

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spent like ten minutes with my shoejust banging the handles and the You didn't
try your hands, like, youdidn't try the hand Well I did,
Yeah you could. I couldn't vndit. Nothing would move. Oh okay,
I see, never mind. What'sthe elevation there? We were thirty
two hundred. Oh that's pretty goodfor down there. I mean, I
know it's really high like Mountain Baldyand all that jazz. It's really high
down there, but that's not that'snothing to sneeze at. Yeah. Yeah,

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this is a beautiful place, man, it's great. And you know,
I looked at all this stuff youhad in the movie, like the
bent fence, and I mean itall makes sense, especially when you're there,
dude, Like when you get thereon the ground, I can see
why my money maker was so stokedon it. Well, you know,
I think, well, you canask the levely and talented Matt Proud to
put a link to the documentary sopeople can see where you were down there.

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So you were pretty impressed with it, and comparing it to the Google
Earth maps and whatever, it justlooks entirely different on the ground, but
isn't that the case, you know, is that usually the case you're thinking,
like where's this sighting report and youlook it up and you go,
ah, I don't know, maybe, and then you get there and you
go, oh wow, yeah,this is totally different, totally different.
We got some sounds, I think, I don't think all more. I
mean, there was a couple oftimes where he goes there was some loud

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kind of snaps, and there wasthese and it was it was not what
it was the most clearly. Ifit was them, it sounded like a
total mouth pop, like like thosekind of like real loud. But there
are kind of I mean, there'sthat big fans for the old vineyard was.
So it basically all lines up prettywell. Like I mean, I

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had no problem with what the guywas saying anyway. I think he's legit.
But having been there yourself, nowyou're even more impressed with the stories
in the situation. Oh yeah,yeah. When you're there, it's like,
Okay, I see this, Isee that. And he's got multiple
witnesses that have been with them ondifferent occasions and he's just a straight up
guy, very good. Yeah,I know. It was a pleasure talking
to him on the podcast here.Then you're lucky to have gone down to

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the property. That's pretty neat.And of course I think I called you
the next night and you were hangingout with Data, the cameraman from Finding
Bigfoot. I didn't know that washim when he picked up. I just
figured I thought you were sill atthe property, and he goes, hey,
this is Dana, and I say, I don't care. I want
to talk to Bobo. I didn'trealize it was Data from Finding Bigfoot,
the camera guy. Otherwise I wouldhave talked him, but I did happen

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to catch up with him. Laterthat night. He texted me saying,
hey, this was Dana. Youjust talked to me, and I go,
oh, man, I didn't knowthat was you. I just thought
it was one of Bobo's friends.And I didn't know because I didn't I
thought you were still at the property. I heard a pretty funny story from
Dana when I talked to him laterthat night about you Bobs, and I
very quickly. I want to relaythat for a segment. I'd like to
start at the podcast sometime, whicheverybody loves Bobo's story time, but I

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want to start other people's Bobo's storytime, because everybody seems to have a
good Bobo story. Dana shared onewith me. I guess that you were
in the neighborhood and you were.You were texting various people saying, hey,
man, I'm in Long Beach,I'm in Southern California or wherever you
were, I'm around you want tohang out? But I guess spellcheck got

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you and you ended up texting,Hey, I'm in Southern California. I'm
aroused. Do you want to hangout? Are you aroused? Are you
aroused? Okay, okay, prettygood, bubbs. I actually only went
to one person that was just wentto mcguiel. Oh that's too bad too,
was in a whole uh you know, group chat. But I did

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respond yes, even better, evenbetter. All right, Well, hey,
well we have a guest here.I don't want to I want to.
I'd want to keep her waiting fortoo much longer here. I just
wanted to catch up with you fora minute. Who is she? Oh?
Well, you know, oddly enough, I don't know that much about
her, because the lovely and talentedMatt Prewitt set this up. So we

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are going to I mean, Iknow a little bit about what we're going
to be talking about here, butI'm going to toss this to Matt Prewitt
to do the introduction and then youand I can learn about the witness and
her importance and why she's on theshow together. Sounds good, Matt,
you want to take it? Yeah. So we get so many excellent emails
from our awesome listeners, and wegot an email on Christmas that I was
really intrigued by. So I wasreading this very nice email from a listener

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named Liz who who was talking about, you know, enjoying the podcast and
had mentioned sort of briefly a bitabout a story that kicked off her interest
in the subject. And so Iimmediately wrote back and I was like,
Oh, that's pretty interesting. Canyou tell me more about this story?
And she wrote back very detailed sortof breakdown of what had occurred that started

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her interest in to investigating this particularsubject, and I just thought, man,
this is fascinating on multiple levels.And then we exchanged some other emails.
I was really impressed with her background, and I just thought this would
be so great for the podcast,because again I think the listeners will hear
there's a lot of different elements thatI think are really intriguing that we can

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go into after we hear the story. But you know, I do think
with you two guys as hosts,in a way, you're sort of like
the proxy for the audience. AndI think some of the best episodes we've
had have been when you've talked topeople that are sort of new to you,
and so you're discovering the story ortheir experience at the same rate as
the audience does, and so itcauses you to generate questions that are probably

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the same kind of questions that theaudience has when they're hearing it. So
I set this up. I onlygave you guys a little bit of information
about this, but I think it'sgoing to be a great episode. And
so we want to welcome Liz.Liz, thank you so much for being
here. Hi, thank you,Matt, Hi Cliff, Hi, Bobo,
nice to talk to you. Thanksfor being here with us. Yeah,
yeah, thanks for listening, andalso thanks for the email and being

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willing to come on the podcast andtell us about your story. Bobo and
I know very very little about it, So would you like to, first
of all, maybe share a littlebit about who you are your background,
whatever you're willing to share, andthen we can get into what started your
interest in the subject. Sure,well, it started after college. I

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left college. I had an artdegree and I wanted to be an art
teacher, but there were no jobs. And so during the summer I was
involved in a shooting. I didn'tshoot anybody, but somebody shot at us.
And when we went to the policedepartment, they asked if I could
identify the person and I said,oh, I can draw a picture of

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them for you. And they wereamazed. And I said and they said,
would you like a job, AndI said, your kid and doing
that and they said yeah. Sothey hired me as a criminal composite artist.
Well, of course you don't dothat full time, even in a
large department. They only call youwhen there's things going on, and so

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I did that. But on thisside, I mean most of the time
I was doing things like dispatcher,jailer, breathalyzer operator, all kinds of
those other jobs that civilians do inpolice departments. I guess it was about
my third year, which would havebeen nineteen seventy eight. It was either
late seventy seven or early seventy eight. I get a call from a friend

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that's a cop, and he said, I have a friend that has been
doing ride alongs with me that isa cop from a northern and he wants
to get you to draw somebody forsomething for you. I think, he
said, I don't know. Hesaid do a drawing. It wasn't clear,
and I said sure, and hesaid, can we come out on

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the weekend. I said sure,when I'm off, you know. So
they came out and he brings inthis big guy, I mean he was
I'm short, but i'd say hewas six or four, probably big guy.
And he says, well, I'mgoing to tell you a story and
I want you to draw what youknow, just what I describe. And
I said sure, So sat downand he starts telling the story and it

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ends up that he's telling me abouta bigfoot, that something that happened to
him. So the story was andI have to tell you, you know,
from doing drawings with people, Imean, working in law enforcement anyway,
even though you're not a cop,you deal with a lot of people,
and you learn when people are tellingyou the truth and how they react

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when they're excited or they're reliving events. So I always kind of pay attention
to that to see how true whatthey're telling you is. And so this
guy, that was one thing thatstuck with me with him because here's this
big, strong cop that was acanine officer and he had moved to O'calla

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after he had been I think letgo from his police department, but I'm
not sure. There was a layoffof a lot of people. And so
he had moved to O'calla where hiswife's family was from and they lived out
in the country on a dirt road, sand road in Okalla National Forest,

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and he was looking for a joband his wife was I think a nurse,
but I'm not positive. And theyhad a little baby that was just
a toddler. And so the husbandtells me the story of oh, he
had two dogs. They were however, he said, MALINOI shepherds, and
he let them out to do theirbusiness at the end of the driveway and

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they, I mean they ran outto the end of the driveway to the
road and there was nobody out there, so he didn't worry about him getting
hit or anything. And he saidthey didn't come back in right away,
and so he heard them and theywere out there. It was like they
were playing and it was, youknow, dark thirty. So he went
out there with his kel light andthe kel light I don't know if you

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all know what that is, butit's a big metal flashlight, all black,
heavy metal. And he took itout there and you could really see
far with it. And he saidthat at the end of the driveway was
the dog. The two were thetwo dogs, and they were playing with
a bigfoot. The bigfoot was playingwith the dogs, and he had I

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don't remember if he said he hadjust done with him or he went back
in and got it. Yeah,he went back in. They wouldn't to
him. So he went back inand got his service revolver, came back
out and called for the dogs.They came, and he shot at the
bigfoot and hid it square, hesaid, square in the chest, and
the thing let out a scream thathe said, he just said, it

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just went right through you, andit screamed and it went off into the
woods. So he said that hewas afraid. He was trying to get
a job as a police officer,and so he was afraid to call anybody.
But I do remember, I'm notsure that he said he called the
deputy out and made a report,but I'm not positive about that, so

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don't quote me. And so hisdescription of it really stuck with me because
at the time, I mean,I knew about the Abominable Snowman, you
know, but I didn't really paythat much attention to stuff like that.
And he described the big as verylarge. I don't remember exactly how large,

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he said, but it was muchlarger than a human. And he
said the thing that stuck out tome as he said it had a cone
shape head and I had never everheard of that before. And he said
also that it had humongous shoulders andarms, it hung down below its knees

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fingertips below the knees, and itwas massive chest, very built up muscular
chest and arms and upper arms andlower arms. That it was very shaggy,
reddish brown color. It had redeyes, but I don't know what
he didn't know if that was redeyes from the from the light or what,

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but he said the eyes were red. And see, I'm kind of
nervous telling this. I mean,it brings back all the things that happened,
you know, But anyway, sothat's the way he described it.
And he said he took a castof it the next day. So that's
the picture, that's the story,and the drawing that I did. No,

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I gave him the drawing and Imade a copy, but I don't
have it. I can't find it. I swear I never got rid of
it, because I have the otherdrawings I did of suspects for different things.
But I don't know what happened toit. But I can still see
it, like you know, itwas yesterday and it was nineteen seventy seven

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or eight. Stay tuned for moreBigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo.
We'll be right back after these messages. One of the things that I found
so compelling about your email is youhad sort of alluded to his behaviors as

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he was recounting the stories. Idon't know if you want to share any
of that with krupenbobor or the audience. Yeah. So, like what I
said at the beginning about you know, really paying attention to what people are
telling you when you work in lawenforcement or work with people that might be
not telling you the truth, Ireally paid attention to that, and he
did several things that really told methat this was the truth. First of

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all, I mean, the storyitself. Why would you come out if
you're a cop and you want ajob and just make this up, you
know, and tell it to somebodyand swear I'm to secrecy, you know.
So that was one part of it. And then the other part was
that he chain smoked the whole timehe was talking, and he shook,

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I mean he was shaking. Hewould pace the floor and then sit down
for a second, but he wouldn'tsit for very long, and then he'd
get up and he'd keep going,and you could tell he was really really
reliving it. I mean there waseven goose pumps at one point that I
noticed. That really convinced me,and that led me to really start paying
attention to what I read about it. And then years later when I heard

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that they had, you know,crests or whatever you want to call it
on their heads, I was likewhat, because that's what he described.
He also described no neck and likethe head fit, the head sat lower
in front of the shoulders. So, you know, just his behavior has
told me that it had to havehappened. You know that he was reliving

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it when he was telling it tome too. Liz, how long did
this interview take like how long dowas he describing this? And how long
does it take? Did it takeyou to make the drawing? Probably i'd
say an hour at least. Okay, so he's fidgeting and pacing and smoking.
Yes, well, he's describing it, and then afterwards, I after

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I drew it, then you revise, so you you know, you say,
is this what you saw? Andhe says no, you know,
there wouldn't. I don't remember exactlywhat he said, but I remember him
saying something about the head not beingthat hot, like there was a neck,
so I had to lower the headon the body, and you know

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that the hands were lower, thearms were lower. So you just revise
as you go until they feel comfortablethat that's the closest proximity to what they've
seen. Did he still have likeissues with it at the end or was
he completely satisfied? It's like,no, that's about as close as we
can get. No, he was. He was very satisfied with it.
And when I say an hour,I don't know because this is forty years

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ago. You know, it couldhave been an hour and a half.
But it was about as long aswhat usually would happen with other ones.
So here's the rest of the story, though. Do you have any questions
about that part? Well, Ihave more questions about what he observed.
Of course. I don't know ifyou want to get into that now or

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should we just wait and go throughthe rest of the story. What do
you feel be better, Lizy,you might want to hear the rest of
the story, all right, laidhonest, because I have an handful of
questions. He said, I can'tpay you or anything for it, and
I said that's fine, you know, because it was an interesting story to
me. And here comes a wind, and so he took the picture.

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I don't remember how I made acopy, but I did. And he
came back in about a week ortwo and he brought me. He pulls
up and in the trunk of hiscar he has a box and he has
jewelry in it. It's turquoise jewelry. And he said, I want you

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to pick out any piece here.And he was a jeweler. I didn't
know it, but he did artsand crafts bears and he said, you
can pick out and I can't reallypay you because I'm out of a job,
but you can pick out any pieceof jewelry you want, and so
I picked out a turquoise ring,and I still have the ring. And
then he told me the rest ofthe story. So he took the picture

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home because he didn't tell me thisat the time, that when I first
did the drawing, but he hadtaught He didn't tell his wife or his
mother in law about it at allfor a long time, and then he
finally told them, and the motherin law said she would babysit the baby

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when they went to work, orwhen he went looking to work for work.
When they were up in Okalla,and they had a deck on the
front of the trailer, and soacross the front of the trailer were windows,
and so she could see out ontothe deck, and in the afternoon
she would watch her soap opera andput the baby out on the deck right

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outside the windows so she could seehim in a playpen. So one sunny
afternoon she was over there, shesaid, and it was nice and pretty
and not too hot, and sheput the baby out there to watch her
soap opera. And she was sittingon the couch which was right up against
the window, so she could justlook over her shoulder at the baby.

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And you know, had the windowsopen so she could hear and everything.
And she said, she's watching hersoap and all of a sudden, she
sees a shadow go across the TV, and so she turns around, thinking
that one of the family comes home. And she said there was a sasquatch
leaning into the crib, but itwasn't like it was going to take it

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or anything. It just leaned overand when it saw her, it ran
off. So that's the rest tothe story. I never met the lady
or anything. This was before Ishot it. I don't know count I
was going to be playing with thebaby if I got shop just for playing
with a dog, that's true,totally. I agree. You mentioned that

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it was playing with the dogs atone time, and then now this other
story that we don't know where thetime. If it's in the timeline of
it playing with a baby, doyou have any information or did did he
relay anything to you to give anysort of indication of how it was playing.
I would like wrestling. Was itlike I mean, poking at it?

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Or is it I mean, howwas it interacting with either of these
things? It said it was wrestlingwith the dogs, but it wasn't like
it was trying to hurt them,because the dogs were like yipping, they
weren't growling or anything, and theseare trained dogs. And then the baby,
she just said it leaned over likeit was like, and the baby

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was looking up at it smiling.You know, she did say that like
it it wasn't scared. So butI don't know a lot more information about
that. I mean, it wasthird hand, you know, so sure.
Did the initial witness tell you howfar away the creature was from him
when he saw it? I don'tremember exactly, but I know it was

(22:56):
a little bit longer driveway. Ialways kind of thought maybe thirty yards,
forty yards, you know, notthat far, not like one hundred yards
or anything. Okay, And whilewhile you were hearing this story for the
first time, all the way backin the nineteen seventies, and he was
unloading this probably fairly unbelievable or certainlyunexpected story upon you, did you believe

(23:22):
him right then and there or didit take the whole hour or hour and
a half or however long it wasfor you to for this to settle in
and you think, oh my gosh, this guy's telling me the truth.
Oh. I did not believe itright away because I kept thinking, what
are these two guys trying to pullon me? You know, because cops
are notorious for joking, and so, you know, I kept watching that,

(23:44):
and that's why I really paid attentionto the way he was acting and
what he was saying, and thenhim saying, don't tell anybody. You
know, he repeated that several timesand being worried that he would not get
it people would think it was crazy. Yeah, sure, right. I
think that's a reasonable fear for someonetrying to get a job in law enforcement,
because law enforcement, you could beyou know, you're gonna go on

(24:07):
on trial at some point, you'regonna be a witness in somebody's trial.
And imagine some scumbag lawyer, rightand saying like, so I understand you
believe in Sasquatches. Is just callingyour credibility in the question. You know,
they have to be very very carefulabout that sort of stuff. I
don't you know, I don't know, but I know it. It really
changed my thinking, and it mayand especially years later when I heard you

(24:30):
know, I heard about like theCrest, not the Crest, but you
know what, I'm sagital crest.I guess it's called And when I heard
things like their arms, you know, the size, the and I didn't
even think about them being in Florida. I always thought it was just like
I said, you know, somewherein Nepal or somewhere in the Pacific Northwest.

(24:52):
I never thought, you know,why would they be anywhere else if
there was one, you know,even years later I thought that, So,
you know, it was just asurprise. I guess, like,
what were they doing in Florida goingon vacation? Do you remember what time
of the year it was? No, I don't, But in Florida,
you know, there's not seasons.There's hot hotter, Yeah, hot and

(25:15):
hotter. You got it. Now, since that time, you've gone on
and I mean, you have aPhD. For goodness sake, and you
one of your specialties in general iscorrect me if I'm wrong, of course,
and elaborate a little bit further.If you could something to do with
a perhaps like oral tradition or storytelling, Like there's some facet in your specialty

(25:37):
that directly has to do with theway people tell stories and how people tell
stories. Can you tell us aboutthat? Because you know one of the
things about in Bigfootland is everybody andtheir mother has a story. Everybody has
a story, and they want totell you no matter what. Like I
want to tell you this story thathappened to me twenty thirty fifty years ago.
And I want to know, firstof all, why, why that

(26:00):
is true? What does this needof human beings? I know we have
two or three hundred thousand years ofsitting around a campfire before they invented,
before we invented writing, So Iknow that has something to do with it,
like the epigenetic aspect to us aboutstorytelling. But there's something else going
on here. And since I havea specialist here, I want to hear
your take on it, if youwouldn't mind. Okay, Well, my

(26:22):
degree, my last degree is inliteracy studies, but that's teaching reading and
so. But my PhD studies werein looking at the way teachers learn and
what sticks with them and what arethe best types of professional developments that you

(26:44):
can do with teachers that will keepthat information stuck with them. And you
know, Cliff, from being ateacher, you can go to those service
days and not learn a thing andput the information away in a closet and
you never see it again, andyou never or try it. So I
was very fascinated with what sticks withteachers, What can you do to help

(27:07):
them retain the knowledge, try outthings, come back and talk about it.
And it came out to that itstarted with book studies. So I
tried professional book studies, and Irealized that what I saw in the people
that were participating was that they toldstories to explain their understanding of the books

(27:29):
they read, of their experiences,and that solidified solidified their understanding of the
concepts that they were learning. SoI started looking more into the importance of
story in our own lives and howwe use it to, like I said,

(27:49):
solidify or understanding explain experiences. Andthere's a lot of neurological science that
has to do with that. Thatit had to do with dopamine levels and
how when you tell a story,if you're listening to a story, it
increases your dopamine too. And storiesalso, because they are based on something

(28:12):
experiential and they build on themselves toa conclusion, they're easier to remember in
the brain than if I stood upand told you a bunch of facts about
something. So that's why I thinkI listened to you, Cliff when you
say, you know you don't likeI don't want to say this and get
you mad at me, but thatyou don't like hearing another story, you

(28:34):
know, and so, And that'sreally why I contacted that because I thought,
well, that's I understand that completely, because after a while, what's
a new story going to do.But it also because of the importance of
story. It helps people to understandtheir experience, It helps us to find

(28:59):
patterns, it helps us to solidifyour understanding of something, and so I
think it's important. Oh, I'dnever be mad at you for what you
think. No, I'm not gonnabe mad at you. Everything's fine.
But after a few thousand road crossingstories, i'd like you to hear I'd
like you to tell me that samesentence again. I can understand that.

(29:22):
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyondwith Cliff and Bobo will be right back
after these messages. One of thethings that I found so compelling about Liz's
email and the context of this particularcase, is that you know, if
we are talking about something like findingBigfoot or Bigfoot and Beyond, or you

(29:45):
know, when I investigated reports withthe BFRO or whatever the case may be.
Like when you have a sort ofbig billboard to the public that you're
soliciting sasquatch stories and then people comedirectly to you with those stories. Of
course, anybody you know, worththeir salt as an investigator has to be
somewhat skeptical upfront that like, well, you have to at least expect like

(30:06):
a certain degree of the reports I'mgoing to receive are going to be intended
to make me believe the claimant,because I am in a position to receive
such reports. And these reports endup in a television series or a podcast,
or on a website or in abook or whatever, and so I'm
always more compelled by these sorts ofstories that come about through these other means.

(30:27):
And you know, some of thebest witnesses I've ever met and the
most compelling stories came to me throughmeans that were not Sasquatch related. And
you know, growing up in atime especially I started investigating reports in the
two thousands, like sasquatch was prettypopular, and it's already become much more
popular. So for you to havereceived this report, you were almost thrust

(30:49):
into like this involuntary sasquatch research orposition, because you're having to basically vet
or investigate this person's claims in thenineteen seventies, you know, time before
the huge popularity of the subject,and you're outside of the Pacific Northwest.
All of that is me lends morecredibility to claim it, all those contextual

(31:11):
things, and I think it shouldserve as an indicator to the outside world
that there are a lot more ofthese people out there. There are so
many people who've had observations or experiencesthat we will never hear about because they
almost tell no one and they onlyever tell a hand few of people,
if any at all. And soyour story I think was a perfect example

(31:33):
illustrating all those points. That wasthe other reason that I you know,
I text, I mean, I'veemailed you because there are so I think,
there are so many, and youknow it may be a lot higher,
you know, oh definitely. Imean there's reports that I included in
the book or that I've mentioned inother places that literally, you know,
I've never talked about the sources ofsome of these reports. But like,

(31:56):
for example, I used to workas a recruiter a phone based recruit and
one of the first recruiting job thatI ever had was hiring people for a
very specific kind of role and youhad to have a certain license for this
role. And so we had adatabase of every license holder who could have
filled this potential role in the country. And it was a searchable database,

(32:17):
and so literally I would search itbased on ZIP code of my favorite areas
to do field research, and soI would get these people on the phone
and see if they were looking fora job and whatever the case would be.
And then I would always ask kindof like coyly. I would say
like, oh, hey, youknow, I've been to that area.
Have you ever heard any good bigfootstories from around there? And there was

(32:37):
one guy in particular who was like, hey, man, that's not funny.
And I said, sir, like, I promise you no one takes
it more seriously than I do.And he told me about this class a
siding that he had. Funny enough, he asked me, he said,
well, have you ever heard ofa little town called Helen, Georgia?
And I was like, yeah,I grew up there. That's where I
do most of my field research fora lot of it. And so he

(32:59):
had a siding there and so,and of course, one thing I always
ask people is like, well,did you ever feel inclined to report this
to anyone like authorities or local lawenforcement or local media. And he said,
oh, absolutely not. And hesaid, I've not even told most
of my family members this story.And so little insights like that just show
you there are so many of thoseout there in the world that we'll never

(33:20):
hear about. Yeah, like thedash can video you got down there too,
If you didn't know the deputy personally, that would neither come to life.
Oh, certainly, that's certainly thecase. And so, you know,
reading Liz's email was like, becauseshe had mentioned, you know in
her original email, Oh, Ihad done a sketch for someone who had
seen one in the seventies near O'callaNational Forest. And so I was like,

(33:42):
oh, can you tell me moreabout this? And so and then
when, like I said, whenI learned about her background, I was
like, Oh, this is reallyrelevant because I'm in the same boat,
Like, I'm fascinated by stories.And you know, I referenced in my
book one of the sources that Ireferenced here, and there was a great
book called The storytelling Animal. Iknow I've recommended it to our Patreon members
before, but to our general listenership, I would definitely recommend reading that book.

(34:04):
But you know, we do sortof perceive the world through a narrative
structure, and so we reflect thatback through our narratives. And we're such
narrative biggest creatures that it's like,you know, you hear people say like,
oh, well, we should juststick to the science. Well,
what is a hypothesis. It's astory. A hypothesis has a narrative structure.
It's just a more quote unquote sciencey word for a very convenient sort

(34:28):
of story. And hopefully it's astory that accurately gives a proposed explanation for
an observed phenomenon. But let's bereal, it's still a story. It
has to be tested. But youknow, we live in a realm of
stories, and stories are definitely veryimportant. Well, I have a question
for you, Liz. You don'tknow where you're drawing is. I would
love, of course, love tosee it. Do you think that I

(34:50):
can convince you or maybe even payyou if I need to, to drew
another one? To the best ofyour recollection of what the Gentleman described,
here's the thing about that. I'vebought about that cliff a lot. But
my problem is that my mind isnow skewed by all of the experience or
the things that I've seen, SoI don't want to say that it would

(35:12):
be accurate. You know, Ican keep looking for it, but I
mean, I could draw it,but I wonder if it would be the
same as what I drew. It'dbe cool to draw it and then come
try to find the other one.That's what I was thinking. Wouldn't that
be an interesting experiment in itself whereyou drew what you believe you remember,
and then compare it to the actualone when it turns up. Because one

(35:36):
of the things I've noticed over theyears is the longer somebody tells a story,
the more they believe their own story, even if it changes a little
over time through no fault of theirown. The details get skewed, or
it introduced or whatever, and thenthey remember the version of the story that
they've been telling instead of what perhapsit was that the first go through.

(35:58):
I absolutely agree with you. That'swhy I you know, I hesitate about
like telling you about the face,because I don't remember that part other than
the eyes and the nose. Idon't remember the color. I don't remember
if it had hair, for sure, you know so, and I know
it was hairy all over, butI don't remember the face part, which

(36:20):
is crazy because that's usually what Idrew, were faces. But yeah,
I can draw it again. I'lltry. I think that would be really
cool. I mean, and honestly, i'd put it up in the museum.
I would be happy to display thatin the museum. Actually too,
so cool. Well, I knowit was yellow, I mean like brown,
light browns and reddish, you knowso. That was another thing.

(36:40):
When I heard about that some ofthem had reddish hair, I thought,
well wow, because he said thesame thing. But it was like a
mixture of hair colors, a yellowish, blondish brownish anyway, it wasn't solid
black or anything. Well, yeah, if you feel like even doing a
sketch, I would love to seeit. Then of course you can email
to you know, the podcast,or you can send it to the museum.

(37:04):
I'll see it either way, okay, sure, yeah, no pressure.
I'll send you a little something inreturn as well. Oh no,
you don't have to do that.I don't have to but i'd like to,
Oh, well, thank you.So as far as storytelling goes,
when somebody tells the story you said, of releases endorphins, it reinforces what
happened. There's a lot of dopamine. I'm sorry, yeah, the dopamine.

(37:27):
Sorry, There's a lot of thingsgoing on psychologically in the storyteller's mind.
So they get something out of it, right, It's not just to
share, it's also to what isto share? But it's also to convince,
it's to express something. I mean, I'm not sure what I'm trying
to They had to encapsulate what I'mtrying to ask there, Well, what

(37:51):
does a storyteller? Like? Howdo what does storytelling do for the storyteller?
I can see what it does culturally. It reinforces cultural ideas, reinforces
cultural traditions. There's a lot goingon there, But for the individual,
it's him or herself. What's goingon there? Like when when somebody wants

(38:13):
to share, are are they pleadingwith you to understand? Are they pleading
with you to experience what they did? What I mean? I guess the
answer is that it depends on theperson. But what are your thoughts on
that? From what I saw withthe people that I studied, they were
doing several things. One was thatthey're telling the story for themselves so that

(38:34):
they could say out loud what theywere thinking in relation to what they were
learning. So they were trying tofind an example of what they were learning
in their experiences with students, orif they didn't have one, they would
That's where the conversation would come in, where other people would say, oh,
yeah, I've seen that before,or I had this trouble and this

(38:59):
might help it. You know,this technique might help that. And so
they're trying to problems I've solved orally, and that gives them another way of
getting their brain to work instead ofjust keeping it in. You know,
you need all those different modalities tohelp you understand things. And so the

(39:20):
other thing is I think they're tryingto elicit understanding and maybe getting support back
from the you know, the otherpeople that are listening. Support in the
fact that you know, when younod, like in conversation, you nod
to somebody, that's a reinforcement ofwhat they're saying, so they keep going.
It's the same thing in storytelling.They're looking for those nonverbal cues to

(39:44):
help them go on with the story. Okay, yeah, you know that's
actually something I had to learn.I thought, I thought for myself.
At least, I did give alot of like nonverbal cues that I was
there. I was just listening becauseI didn't to interrupt, so I didn't
even nod or anything. I justkind of stared. And I learned after
a long time and a lot ofharsh lessons that kind of freaked people out.

(40:06):
But I'm socially awkward in many manyways. That's not just the only
one. Yeah, it's kind offunny that you mentioned that. So the
people, it sounds like people arelooking for looking for understanding, looking to
the feel that that perhaps they're notalone. I imagine some people are looking
to impress, at least that's that'sthe impression I get from it, honestly,
sometimes, and they're they're looking formaybe some validation that they're they're not

(40:31):
alone in their experience perhaps, Andthat's not not not isolating Bigfoot as a
subject either, it's just whatever they'resharing with you. You know, I
drove real fast one night, oryou know this this this milk costs too
much, or something like that.They're they're looking for a feeling of not
being alone. It's like some sortof group adherent like adhesion or something like

(40:52):
that. Well, I'm glad youbrought up feelings because that's an important part
of it. The when you tellstories, the per since listening may not
have had that exact experience, butthey may have. They've felt fear before,
they've felt pride before, they've feltall those emotions that we share as

(41:12):
human beings may be different in differentexperiences, so that also is a way
to build community, you know that. Yeah, I've been scared before or
was it that It may have been, you know, something else that caused
it, but we have that sameemotion, so then we can put ourselves
with that person in that same experiencethat way. Yeah, you also mentioned

(41:35):
the modality, which is a teacher. I didn't know that word until I
was a teacher. And I've heardthat word of course before, but I
didn't understand the context of it untilI was a teacher. And it's basically
the idea that people learn in differentways, you know, Like I'm a
very visual learner with a secondary ofan audio learner, so I mean I
learn I might even skew towards audiolearner more actually because I'm a musician after

(41:58):
all. But you know, visuallearners very often have things color coded and
organized and all that sort of stuff, and that's definitely not me. And
there's also kin acetic learners who haveto kind of do things to understand.
And mind you, everybody is oneof the everybody's all of these things,
but they tend to be more dominantin one. And there's other modalities as

(42:19):
well, you know, as thetheory has been like kind of strung out
a little bit more and plumbed abit more in depth. But the kinesthetics
have a reputation of being the painand the butts in the classroom because they're
the ones that have to stand upand do things all the time, and
they're the ones that don't necessarily sitdown well at their desks like teachers very
often want them to do. SoI would very often let them stand up

(42:42):
at their desk and do what theyneed to do it's in order to learn
it. But the audio learners,they're the ones that used to drive me
nuts because probably because I am oneto a large degree, but also what
I find is that for them toprocess things. You know, audio learners
have to hear something to really understandit in a way, but for them
to process it, they tend totalk about it that way. They can
hear themselves and process it that way. They're processing the information and integrating get

(43:07):
into themselves somehow by listening to thatinformation. But sometimes they have very often
they have to say those things outloud. So they're the ones that just
won't shut up. And I amthat sometimes. You know, I'm rather
long winded, and I keep goingon about things and I probably should have
stop talking about a long time ago, like what I'm saying now, for
example. But you get what I'msaying. So the storytelling aspect is probably

(43:31):
what I'm hearing is has something todo with that as well. It's a
processing through talking and therefore through listening, so you kind of the storyteller gets
it both. They get at bothends there. It's like they're saying it
and they're also listening and processing theinformation at the same time. Yes,
and the auditory learners, really goodstorytellers can build a picture of what they

(43:57):
saw in detail, so you getyou if you're a visual learner and not
an auditory processor, you can visualizethat thing that they're describing by the detail
they give you. So the moredetail they give you, the better.
It is, just like, itwas kind of funny when you were asking
me more information about what did itlook like? I was thinking, Oh,

(44:21):
Cliff's a visual because he's asking memore in depth you know, about
it, and I'm an auditory processor. It drives two of my sisters crazy,
and the other two are both likeme or the other ones like me,
so we drive them crazy. It'skind of funny when we're all together,
you know. Yeah, we allhave a little bit of it all
in us though at the same time. So it's just't matter what modality is

(44:45):
dominant. Stay tuned for more Bigfootand Beyond with Cliff and Bobo will be
right back after these messages. Oneof the skeptical arguments that's always sort of
irked me was that, oh,well, if an event like you know
so and so sasquatch siding really happened, they couldn't possibly have remembered this or

(45:07):
that. And you know, inwriting the book, I mean, over
the years, I'd really been interestedin this sort of not only like the
physiological neurological responses that people have distressfulevents, but also psychological responses, but
especially in terms of memory. Andyou know, I'd found quite a bit
of literature on that, which Icondensed just to make a few relevant points

(45:28):
in the book. But you know, i'd mentioned I'll just read it from
the book because that's easier than tryingto paraphrase it quickly. But in chapter
six I had mentioned that quote.Studies indicate that two categories of events are
more accurately recalled than mundane ones,negative experiences and novelty. Negative experiences are
remembered in higher resolution or vividness thanpositive ones, given the relationship between negative

(45:52):
emotion and sensory processing. Since negativeor frightening experiences engage more of the sensory
processes necessary for survival, these eventsand the elements within them are retrieved and
recalled in greater detail than positive ones. Moreover, neuroimaging studies demonstrate that the
process is utilized during the retrieval andrecall are the same processes using during the

(46:14):
encoding of a negative event. Thisresults in a stress response during memory recall.
And so I've always been motivated bythat too. When I see peoples
as you described, like the waythat they're behaving as they're reliving the event
or offering the claim, let's say, And of course there are great actors
and people went oscars and things ofthat nature, but most people are not

(46:37):
talented actors, and some of thoseresponses would be near impossible to fake,
especially when you're seeing physiological responses.I mean, like when you mentioned the
dopaminergic response to hearing stories and ortelling stories, it's easy for us to
go, oh, that's interesting psychology. It's like, that's not psychology,
that's biology. That's hardwired. Youknow, nuts and bolts, flesh and

(47:00):
blood biology, and so some ofthese things are so deeply rooted and instantiated
that I think they point to realitythat this person is telling the truth.
They really observed and experience what theyclaim to have. I love that you
did that, that you read thatpassage because I highlighted it. I was

(47:21):
I was in there raising my handgiving you hot FIBs when I read it,
because it's so true and it's soclear that that's exactly what why you
see that in people. It isnot easily acted out. It is biological.
So it's one of those tells Iguess you can use you know that
something's going on. I highlighted alot in your book. Well, I

(47:45):
appreciate that very much, and especiallygiven your background. So I'm glad to
hear that that those sections resonated withyou because I tried to accumulate a lot
of literature on those things. Butobviously I'm not an expert, not even
close to it in those fields.Well, yeah, I know we're coming
up on our time frame here.But the question that I would have that

(48:05):
I think the audience would have tois, Liz, since we're all invested
in listening to stories that come fromclaimants or you know, witnesses, observers,
experiencers, et cetera, Like,what should we be listening for?
Are there any tools that we shouldarm ourselves with to evaluate claims and stories
of that nature because we are sortof swimming in a sea of them at
the moment as regards the Sasquatch,So is there any advice from your expertise

(48:29):
that you could offer to us orour listeners. I don't think any that
we've you know, like I said, I mean, my expertise is not
in storytelling, but you know,I've been a student of it. I
guess is the best way to sayit for all these years because of what
I've done, you know, butjust keeping your eyes white and your ears
wide open. And I think youall are pretty expert at that by now

(48:52):
because you take a lot of reports, so you know how to wage through
the junk, you know, andbe able to ask the right questions.
And that's that's an important thing thatI learned when I was doing the composite
work, and being able to becausewhen I saw people, they usually it
was right after something happened, likea bank robbery, you know, and

(49:15):
so you had to calm them downfirst to even get anything out of them.
And so being able to just keepyour eyes and your ears open and
read between the lines and be ableto ask the right questions that ell elicit
more response. How often would youhave to do this sketches like? It
was pretty common? It was onlyfor major crimes, No, it was

(49:37):
mainly major crimes are ones that theydidn't have. It was a lot of
bank robberies, a couple of somemurders. It was usually those, and
then a sasquatch. You know.They were fine, especially when you have
I had one one time that wasa bank robbery it was up here where
I live now, and because whenI'm left Florida and I moved up north,

(50:02):
I still was a I did criminalcomposites for a while with the police
department, and I had one thatwas a bank robbery and it was a
bunch of women, and so Ihad to get them to calm down.
And then once I got the picture, the funny thing was the guy was
wearing a railroad conductor's hat. Andhe was an older man and he had

(50:24):
a railroad conductor's hat, and hehad sat down in the lobby for quite
a while, and all the womensaid the same thing, the hat.
You know, well, that's somethingI don't even need to know what he
looks like if he had the haton. And the agent came in and
took one picture of one look atthe picture and said, I know that
guy. Let's go pick him up. He just got out of jail,

(50:46):
out of prison. So if youwere going to commit a crime, would
it be better to wear something likethat, like a Abe Lincoln hat,
because you're going to look at thehat and not your face. Or was
it just try to people that remembergoing to remember you better because of the
Habit would make them remember your facelest Oh, don't give Bobo advice on
giving on doing crimes careful, I'llask you for a friend. Uh,

(51:10):
that's a good question, you know. It seems like, yes, that
would be a good thing because itwould draw the eye to that thing and
not to your face. That's agreat idea, Bobo, but I'm not
giving that out to people. Well, well, Liz, thank you very
much for coming on Bigfoot and Beyond. We really do appreciate it, and
it is an interesting story, andI really appreciate the psychological aspects that you

(51:34):
brought to the conversation. And it'sfun to hear all the old teaching lingo
again too, as I've been outof the classroom quite a while now,
so talk about modalities and all thatstuff. I really do use that stuff
probably on a weekly basis, evennow, even now, because you know,
at the museum here we try tobe we try to cater to multiple
modalities. You know, we havethings to listen to, we have things

(51:55):
to see, we have things totouch, all that sort of stuff and
smell even you know, we havewe try to attack the various modalities here
in the shop. Because I maynot be in the classroom any longer,
but I still view myself as aneducator. It's one of the three main
components to the mission goals of theNABC is to educate the public. The
sasquatches are just just real animals,just doing what they do. So we

(52:19):
really do appreciate your time and expertiseand your thoughts, and just thank you
so much for coming on. Well, thank you for having me on.
I didn't think I had anything toadd, but yeah, thank you,
Liz. I really do want tosee you. I'd love to see you
draw, just as like a littleexercise on memory draw and you think it
looked like and then when you findthe original comparison, I think that'd be

(52:42):
really interesting. And I wasn't joking. I would be happy to display that
in the museum. So if youdo happen to do that, reach out
to me at the museum North AmericanBigfoot Center at gmail dot com and just
just shoot me an email, letme know that you've done. You take
a picture of it, I'll printit up. I'll take all the costs,
all that sort of stuff, andI would just I would just love
to see what come up with.So if you do that, please do
reach out to me. Okay,okay, I will all right. Thank

(53:06):
you so much Liz for coming on, and I'll let Bobo take it out
from here. Thank you, Liz. That was really interesting. That was
a good conversation. Okay, folks, thanks for listening and tuning in.
Hit like hit Share. Tell yourfriends to tell me about us, get
them on board, convert them tothe squatch them Until next week, y'all,
keep it squatchy. Thanks for listeningto this week's episode of Bigfoot and

(53:34):
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(54:02):
went out against