Thinking Sideways: Jane Doe 245UFVA

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Thinking Sideways. I don't think you never know what stories
of things. We simply don't know the answer too well.
Hi there, welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast.

(00:26):
I'm Devin, I'm Steve, I'm Joe, and we're gonna definitely
solve a mystery tonight. We are. Hell yeah, don't you
think we're going to solve this one? You don't think
the based on the name not so much. Okay, I'm
sorry to be a naysayer, but I I got reservations tonight.
That's fair. It's uh so we're doing this case. It's

(00:49):
called Jane Doe to four five U F v A.
It's a really sexy name, right yeah? Would you dress
it up? Rolls off the tongue of parents would name
their kids. So yeah, I mean, you know, let's just
get into it. Our story starts on December eighteenth, six

(01:11):
in the Pleasant Valley Memorial Park, which is a small
cemetery in Annandale, Virginia. That's how you say that name, right,
Annandale sounds just like um. The body of an unidentified
woman is found in the part of the cemetery that's
designated for children's graves. And now this is one of
the things I heard this thing about about this cemetery,

(01:33):
and I didn't know that cemeteries typically has segregated children's sections.
I think smaller cemeteries often do this. Is it it's
in a smaller town. Well, and isn't it the cemetery
is old? Yeah, no, actually it's not. The cemetery itself
is old. This area specifically where she was found was
near more very recent grows. Okay, no, actually I did

(01:57):
a little research on the cemetery. They've got a webpage. Yeah,
they didn't start the cemetery. Oh that's all to me.
Well yeah, yeah, yeah, but yeah it was it was
somebody's estate. Apparently somebody looks, you know, some very wealthy
person there and their stays sold to developers who created
the cemetery. Right. I think in smaller places they often
do that. Yeah. I don't know if they had in

(02:18):
a naturally high rate of invent mortality there or anything
like that they needed that. I don't really know why
they had that area, but they did. They found two
fifty bills, one was for the corner and one was
for the cemetery. Cemetery, and they both had the note
with them, A note with them that read deceased by
own hand, prefer no autopsy, Please order cremation with funds provided,

(02:41):
Thank you, Jane Doe. So, first off, that's a little weird.
She signed Jane Doe doesn't want an autopsy, and really
fifty dollars for cremation obviously created anybody for a long
long time, it's has gone up, Yeah, a little bit.
So all right, it's it's already a little bit weird.

(03:03):
That's unusual. Right. So she had apparently taken some valium
and consumed a sizeable amount of brandy. Her blood alcohol
level was point one four. The yeah, so that's that's
a lot of brandy, especially brandy. Let's be honest here,
of the alcohols you think, oh, I could drink a

(03:25):
lot of that brandy I believe or not some people
like that stuff. Maybe I don't know. So in addition
to the brandy that they found in the site, I
think it was like near her hand or something. I
don't it was unclear. It wasn't part of her knapsack findings.
Um they found her knapsack and it had two empty
juice bottles, a roll of masking tape, a Jeff Fox

(03:47):
wherethy you might Be, a Redneck cassette, a Monty Python,
and the Holy Grail cassette. She had a portable tape
player and headphones um and the headphones were on her
head over her ears, and she had been listening to
recording comedians mel Brooks and Carl Reiner doing their two
thousand year old man routine. Sir, is it true that

(04:07):
you are two thousand years old? Boy? You are too.
It's hard to believe, sir, because in the history of man,
nobody's ever lived more than a hundred and sixty seven
years as the man from Peru would claim to be.
But you claim to be two thousands. Yes, I'll be.
I'm not yet, I'll be two thousand October. She wanted

(04:34):
to have a fun time. Yeah, this is it's kind
of you know, they're all comedies. She seems to kind
of be feeling trying to feel better about herself or something.
So this is another like, uh, put off the thing
about this case. So she had they found her. The
headphones were on the tape presumably had been playing, but

(04:55):
she'd killed herself by putting a plastic bag over her
head over the headphones and taping it shut and suffocating
herself while she listened to a comedy cassette tape. And
this is this is a that's kind of a weird,
difficult way to kill yourself. Yeah, I just thinking the
same thing. Putting tape around your own neck can't be easy. Yeah,

(05:17):
I agree with that. I think that would be that hard.
But but actually like just laying there and suffocating without
tearing the bag after well, I think part of that
is the valium and brandy, right. I think that probably
helped a little bit. If she was just really really
drunk and really high on valium, maybe she just fell
asleep and just never woke up. But I this, this

(05:39):
is one of the things that raises some red flags
for people in this case partnered especially with the like
very weird suicide note it comes along with it, and
we'll get to this of course later. Next to her,
there was a clear plastic sheet on the ground, and
next to the sheet there was an eight inch Christmas
tree that um was set up. It wasn't just like

(05:59):
calling the ground, It was set up and it had
gold balls and red ribbon. And they also found a
poem written on a typewriter that read, now I lay
me down to sleep soon to drift off to the
eternal deep. And though I die and shall not wake, sleep,
we'll sleep sweeter will be than this life I forsake.

(06:21):
Weird which starts out like the now I lay me
down to exactly keep And a Google search of this
phrase yields no results except for things pertaining to this case.
So she was kind of a pellet that maybe she
made this up. Maybe yeah, and she had access to
a typewriter well in in like rural Virginia. But that's

(06:43):
maybe not so weird. Well, it's not weird, but when
you think about it, I mean, she she didn't appear
to be from around the area because nobody reported her
missing from the immediate area. But nobody reported her missing
from any area. She could have been reported missing from
somewhere else, or and they just never tied the two together.
Or maybe she was never reported missing. Yeah, and again
we'll get yeah to more of that. But that's true.

(07:06):
You know a typewriter or you know something. The deceased
by own hand letter was also written on a typewriter.
I guess it could have been a computer. I don't
you know. I don't know. I would say if if
it was done with a typewriter. They would specifically say
a typewriter, because the typewriter leaves an impression in paper
that a printer, even an old dot matrix printer, wouldn't

(07:27):
be able to replicate. Yeah, they do, they specify. Some
people specify, I should be clear. Some people specified that
the now it lay me down to sleep was on
a typewriter. Others don't. Nobody specifies about the deceased by
own hand letter being typewritten or not, or handwritten or not.
I saw some pictures of some of her personal effects,

(07:49):
and it was a picture of the typewritten No no
other down to sleep. I didn't see any picture the
deceased by own hand, So I have no idea. Yeah
I don't either. That's okay, it's already like a little weird.
So let's talk about her clothes and jewelry, because it's
also weird. At least I think it's weird. Let's have
it all right. So, she was wearing a teal all

(08:10):
weather Eddie Bauer hooded jacket which was sized medium. These
are important, by the way, sized medium. She was wearing
a navy blue sweater sized large red sweater, a red
sweater sized extra large red sleeveless silk shirt sized petite large,

(08:31):
a navy blue knit wool pants size large, black loafers
sized medium. And all of those clothes are clothes that
you would find it like an upscale kind of like
Sacks Fifth Avenue is what they've been tossing around are.
You might find them also a good will, because you'll
find lots of new clothes at the good will. And
the thing about the good will is you'll find something
really cool that you like, but it's never in your

(08:52):
size exactly. Yeah. Well yeah, And isn't it that all
of them were you said they came from like Sax
fifth alf or something, and they were all nicer brands. Yeah, really,
all the same brand basically. Yeah, except for the Eddie
Bauer jacket. Everything was kind of the same size. I'm sorry,

(09:15):
the same brand, got it? Got it? Okay? Um? But
they're all weird sizes, you know. So that's something that
piques a lot of people's interests Um And I know, Joe,
you had expressed some interest in this that you Where
do you get these things? You get them from the
sack Smith Avenue, you get them firsthand, or you get
them a goodwill? Right, People talk about the brand being

(09:39):
indicative of her being more well off, but other people
talk about maybe she just had a think for this
brand and got them all at I never saw anything
in the reading and the research that talked about the
condition of the clothes. Did you ever come across anything
like that, No, because that would be something to me.
I would wonder if they're in really good condition, that

(10:03):
would indicate she bought them new. If they weren't in
the best of condition or a little threadbare in spots,
that would say that she bought them at a second
hand store. So I'm surprised that this has never come out. Yeah,
although you know, I found stuff like a good will
and stuff that looked almost new. So you find stuff
there that somebody gets for the president. They buy it

(10:25):
and they never wear and they finally get rid of it.
That's true. It's entirely possible, but that's definitely true. So
they also she also has some jewelry. There was a
small gold watch that she was wearing as a guess watch,
which isn't cheap. I mean, you know, it's not like
the most luxurious, luxurious of brands, but those watches are
like a couple hundred bucks usually well in especially Yeah,

(10:48):
and a fourteen carrot gold ring that had four jade
stones in it. Um. She also had a metal bead
chain with a medic alert you know those medical tags
or whatever. Uh, and it said no code DNR, no penicillin.
So another thing that people are talking about, right, is
that she's a Jane Doe. But often you can trace

(11:10):
these things, these medicals, Yeah, do they actually it's numbered.
They're not. You can order them from wherever you want,
especially like when we're getting into the nineties. You just
order like a dog tag with whatever on it. They're not.
There's no medical issuance of these things. You might actually

(11:33):
be able to find what the good will you probably,
so you know, no, it is you could. You could
get all these things at the good will probably, but
you also might get them because you are well off
and you like spending money. So this is another part
of the mystery, right, is that either she's a well

(11:56):
off older woman or she's like kind of a vagrant,
transient kind of person who just got a bunch of
stuff at the good will, including a typewriter, because including
a we're exactly how exactly do you get access to
a typewriter in paper to I don't think I do.

(12:19):
Like to look on your face, I can see, Oh,
I gotta go to the library. I haven't been there
in a while. Yeah, I haven't seen a typewriter in
a while. Be kind of cool to see one. Yeah, yeah,
Well we do live in Portland, Oregon, so you so
you know the other thing that really gets me about
this case is that she's never been identified. They have

(12:39):
her DNA on record, they have her fingerprints on record,
they have her dental record. But you would think that
somebody somewhere would have a record of this woman, right,
especially with all that information, and it was the nineties.
It's not like this is like the bad version of
all those things from the fifties, right, Yeah, it's it's yeah,
you would think that information be spread a little easier. Well, yeah,

(13:01):
I think about it is. It's like like, stay with
their d N a m. You still have to find
somebody that you know to match her too. Sure, but
fingerprints though, right, your prints als was probably never arrest
their fingerprinted. So that's a good point. They don't. I mean,
people think in this day and age, we get fingerprinted
more often than people did twenty years ago. You gotta

(13:26):
go to the bank, you gotta give a fingerprint for
certain checks or for jobs or for whatever. Where As
before I think it was, like Joe said, if you
were booked into the system for a variety of reasons,
or if you had some high security clearance job, they'd
have your fingerprints on file. But otherwise they're not there.

(13:46):
I guess that's true. I don't Yeah, I don't think
about that, you know, like I you go get a
job and they say, okay, we gotta get your fingerprints,
and that's just normal discourse these days today it is. Yeah,
I guess that's fair that that's fairly new. Yeah. So
and dental records, yeah, because yeah, I mean it's you know,
unless you have somebody that you're trying to match it too.

(14:08):
It's like a needle in a haystack. Same DNA. So
so some days somebody comes forward and says, hey, we
think this might be our and Nettie or something like that.
Then you can you can use the DNA then to
solve the whole problem. Yeah, but that's about it pretty much. Dang, Yeah,
I was so on it. So there are Oh, I

(14:29):
guess the other thing I should mention is that pretty
much Nobody thinks she was a drifter, though she was
likely not from that area. People don't think that she
was just like a vagrant that happened along in this area.
Everybody seems to think that it was fairly intentional that
she traveled to this spot and died there. Yeah, I
don't think, you know, for example, the jewelry. I don't

(14:50):
think your typical homeless person has you know, expensive fourteen
care at gold jade. And I don't think that most
people donate things like a fourteen here it jade ring
to good will. You know. I think that the big
hitch in that theory, maybe you was her wedding ring
or something. But most people, if you're going to get
rid of that, you're going to pawn it. At least

(15:10):
maybe she got it a pawn shop. I don't know. Yeah,
maybe another really popular way to get rid of stuff
like that is to have a stolen from you. That
was a lot. That's true, That's definitely true, you know.
And the other thing is how did she get to
the cemetery? Did she take a cab? So don't you
think that like a cabby would remember if he gave
a ride to a woman who had like a Christmas

(15:32):
tree with her. Oh yeah, but but you know, there's
two things. She had a backpack. The backpack was big
enough to hold the Christmas tree. But also she might
have she might have also gotten the Christmas tree at
the cemetery if they if somebody came in and put
a little Christmas tree on their child's grave, for example.
That's true because it was that time of year. She
might have decided, that's kind of cheery. I'm gonna go

(15:53):
grab that lay next to people while I kill myself. Yeah. Yeah,
well that she did a lot of weird things while
she killed herself. And help I gets this town? Do
you know the basically the approximate population of the town.
I did. I did a little research because I was
curious about how she got there too, like like, so
I did a little research, and I was it was inconclusive.
Like I did googling on bus lines between Annandale and

(16:15):
Fairfaxure exactly where I was going. Was there any kind
of public transportation in the area. Yeah, and I was
not able to establish the existence. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I was not able established and and that was just
a government website. There might be private line too, But
I couldn't find any any indication that there's a line
that runs between those two towns, for example, But you know,

(16:35):
doesn't mean they don't. It's a fairly populous part of
the country, and I would think that there would be
some sort of transportation options are a rail But you know,
I don't know how close proximity this cemetery is to
a rail station. I looked at the I looked at
the Google map of and everything in the aerials and everything,
and I saw there are plenty of roads around there,

(16:57):
major thoroughfares, but no rail lines to speak of. Interesting,
So your she's going to walk, take a cab, maybe
a bicycle, Oh, bicycle probably? Why do we always forget
about bicycle? I know, the antiquated everywhere. Um So, there
are a couple of theory. There's some that are really interesting,

(17:17):
some that are boring and mundane. All of them are
equally viable at this point, cly, I mean, unfortunately, given
the information that we have, everything is kind of on
the same playing field, it, um So. One of the
first fairly mundane theories is that she was a cancer
patient that had gone into relapse and was just tired

(17:38):
of fighting. Um It would help explain the do not
resuss tape um. And people get there from the fact
that in the picture of her her hair is very short,
and they say that it reminds them of somebody who
had gone through chemo on their hair was growing back.
I don't put a lot of stock into that theory.
A woman of her age, from the time that she

(18:00):
grew up in a lot of older women cut their
hair short like that, especially of that age. It's too
bad that I don't know how thorough the autopsy was.
He would think that there was no autopsy. I thought
there was because I I had read that in Virginia
it's required and when there's a suicide, it's required to
have a suicide. Everything that I found said that they

(18:22):
honored her request for no autopsy. All I know, I
haven't done my research on like the Virginia law on
autopsies and suicide, but as far as I know, and
as far as everybody on the internet talking about this
nose and according to the official report, they honored her
no no requests. Well that's interesting, which makes you know

(18:45):
this is a great It's a great segue into one
of the other theories that there is, is that this
was actually a murder. Well that's no, actually, that's that's
actually what I was thinking, yeah, is that it was
a murder. Wait, wait, flesh this out a little bit
for me. Yeah, So, I mean, what at our way
to get away with murder? Right? You take somebody out
into like this kind of weird environment, Okay, and I

(19:08):
don't know, or maybe she was meeting somebody or maybe
you know. There's a lot of different scenarios in which
this plays out, but essentially what happens is you kill
this woman somehow, and then you leave a hundred dollars
behind with a note that says, oh, by the way,
don't perform an autopsy, and then you leave and they
don't perform an autopsy and you get always scot free.

(19:30):
Maybe you poison or maybe you injected her with poison
and then fed booze to her and vallium before she
actually died. She dies, you wrap a thing around her head,
but I don't know, well, you know, that's I was
I was just going to say, it's more plausible to
me to believe that somebody could give her booze and
valium and maybe even mix the volume in with the boost,

(19:51):
so she's not even aware that she's taking valium. And
then when she passes out or goes to sleep because
of that, you just lay her out nicely and tie
the plastic bag over her head and she suffocates. And
to me, that's more plausible than somebody getting really high
on valuable booze and then wrapping a plastic bag around
their own head. That's very nefarious. I would say, why

(20:13):
do you always go there? Why is this m you're
all about? Murders? Doesn't make me feel very comfortable. No, No,
I'm sad that I'm the one sitting next to him today.
So and and then just for the fun of it,
of course you can. You can plant a lot of
mysterious clues around like a Jeff Foxworthy tape. Okay, you're

(20:35):
just like feeding into all of my theories today. It's fine.
So that's actually one of the other theory that this
woman was really like an amateur sleuth herself decided she
didn't want to live anymore for whatever reason. None of
the thing about all these theories that none of them
are like really well flushed out, like all of them are.

(20:56):
These are just people making coming up with their own
ideas and they just kind of pertain to like one
aspect that nothing explains the whole thing. Well, none of
this stuff is understand So the theory is that she
was an amateur sleuth of some kind or knew somebody
who was an amateur sleuth or whatever, and decided, I'm

(21:17):
going to kill myself and totally plant a lot of
weird stuff around me, and it's gonna you know, or
it's going to be clues. Maybe it was like all
part of an elaborate something. The person who was supposed
to get the message got the message right. And I
mean we've we've kind of talked about ideas like this
before with them like the in Australia. Yeah, that like

(21:38):
may have faked a UFO sighting because he was uf enthusiasts.
You know. I think there are people like this certainly
in life. Who knows if that's what this is, Like
Comin Shoot or whatever his name was. I'm sure he was. Yeah, yeah,
that's right, you do think that about it. But yeah,

(21:59):
the up I have with this theory is it's that
if I were so inclined and I wanted to kill myself,
what I would do is that would leave a lot
of really strange clues, and I would kill myself, but
I would make it look like murder, and then my
murder would be an enduring mystery, and my name would
be attached to it, so my name would be all
over the internet. I wouldn't just be John Doe, right,
So that was I guess. One of the other things

(22:21):
that people were talking about, or at least that I
think with this whole thing, is that if you're just
leaving a fun mystery behind, why hide your identity? Why
not take credit for it? Because the part of the
mystery is that you don't know who she is. If
they knew who she was, but she left all these
strange things behind. Why did she have the Christmas Tree?

(22:42):
Why did she have the Jeff Foxworthy tape and and
the and Monty Python. Well, that would just be an
odd footnote in her file, That's true. Nobody would say, oh,
you remember Marge. Marge, you know had all these things?
No that, and why did she do that? That would
not pique people's interest enough because there's there's a larger

(23:04):
mystery here, which is who is she? Why she had
the Holy Grail, my low on the list, the Christmas Trail,
that stuff. But you know, Actually, what this reminds me
of more than anything is the Da Vinci Code. Did
you guys ever read that? Remember that? Like like at
the beginning, the museum curators has has been has been
shot or stabbed whatever, and he's dying, but he quickly

(23:24):
arranges his body in a strange way that was pointing
at various pages and stuff like that, and left clues
for Tom Hanks to to decipher the mystery of what
he was trying to tell them. Maybe this is the
same thing exactly. Maybe it was just a suicide letter
in and of itself. Right, was that only the right
person would know, The people that really were important to
her would know what was going on, and they would say, Okay,

(23:49):
we don't need to tell everybody the answer. Fine, Maybe
I don't know. It's one of the many. Another question,
there's got to be somebody who's who's gotten a copy
of that Jeff Foxworthy tape and played it backwards and
that wasn't the one she was listening to when she
year old man. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, I play

(24:11):
all this stuff backwards and I'm sure the answer will
be there. Yeah. I think probably that's true. So the
next theory is my favorite one. Um, I like it
a lot. Is that cover one? No? If not if
the Marjorie West connection. So Marjorie West is a mystery

(24:34):
to herself, she and I don't think that we need
to really go into a lot of details, but suffice
to say that she's a girl who is still classified
as endangered missing. She's not been classified as presumed dead yet,
which is interesting. She was born in nineteen thirty three
and disappeared in nineteen thirty eight when she was four

(24:56):
years old. And so here are the pictures of fat
so Low. Long time to be just listed as in danger? Yeah,
so especially look at this one, right, this is a
very cute little girl. We'll post these pictures. Of course.
She looks a little bit like Shirley Temple, got red,
curly hair and blue eyes. And then look at the

(25:17):
Jane Doe picture again, I feel like they look a
lot alike. I feel like their jawlines are very similar.
They've got very similar colored hair and textured hair. I
can't tell what color this woman's eyes are, but I
feel they look very similar. Yeah, it's hard, it's hard,
but because it's like sixty years different years difference. And

(25:37):
here's the other thing that that bugs me is that
when I haven't seen a photo of our Jane Doe,
what you have there is a reconstruction of what she
looks like, So it's not an actual photo of her.
You know that that's a little that makes it a
little hard to decide if that's under percent accurate to

(26:01):
apply against a photograph, and that's fair, I guess I
just assume it's like a fairly accurate recreation, reconstruction. Well,
and I'm sure that it's relatively or fairly accurate. That's
a good word to use because but it's not a photograph,
so that's true. But the point of this is that
it looks as close as they could possibly get to

(26:22):
what she looks like for identification purposes. Well, now the
thing about it is, so, what's what's Marjorie's last name? West?
Marjorie West. You know, if somebody really wanted to check
this out, would be fairly easy to do because she
still has I'm sure our living relatives, yes, and it
would be easy to do a DNA check and actually
find out. So that's one of the things. Because this

(26:43):
is just an internet quote internet theory, it doesn't seem
like the authorities are really buying it, which is fair,
and DNA tests are kind of expensive. I mean, Murray
does them all the time. But yeah, yeah, yeah, if
maybe she has a living sister that they used to

(27:05):
show like what she might look like, because they say
they looked a lot alike. But there's a picture of
her when she like a year after Marjorie disappeared, and
I don't think they looked that much like at all.
I don't think the pictures of that little girl and
this woman but she was older, wasn't changed a couple
of years. Yeah, Marjorie disappeared in nineteen thirty eight. She

(27:27):
would have been sixty three in nine six, which is
the approximate age they gave for this woman. They look
a lot alike. She was found in the infant place,
which a lot of people and I kind of agree
that it could be a sort of mourning for her
own lost childhood, whatever happened to her. How old was
Marjorie when she was when she disappeared? Four Well, it's

(27:51):
it's it's pretty well known that children that are that
young that get abducted tend to not remember their families. Sure,
so unless she, you know, went through years of psychotherapy
or what is the other way, hypnosis or something again,
And I hate to to poo poo this on you,

(28:11):
but it's that's again that seems like a really big
reach to me, I guess, although I wouldn't say that
hypnosis and psychotherapy are the only way that you can
on earth hidden memories. True, but you know how many
cases are there where people come forward and say, I
just remembered suddenly that you know, this priest was doing
bad things to me and my own relation. So you know,

(28:35):
I think it's a fairly compelling theory that maybe you know,
she went on and had her own life and whatever happened,
and that's fine, and then you know, in her sixties
was suddenly like, oh my gosh. But you know, I
have two problems with this series. Number one is that people,
for some reason seem to think there might be a connection.

(28:56):
But to me, it's like, it's like an amazing coincidence
that we've got these two mysteries at book ending this
person's life. That's kind of a and and the other
thing is that supposedly she was abducted and somebody raised
her basically Marjorie. And yeah, there's not really any good
theories on what happened to her. But she lived for

(29:17):
but she lived for another another fifty nine years after
she was abducted, and and that time she had to
have formed relationships with people people would know her. So
some of those people at least would have you would think,
reported her missing. Yeah, you would think that, but you
would think that anybody would report somebody missing. Again, the
crowning mystery, and this whole thing is nobody knows, and

(29:38):
nobody has seems to have said, oh, this lady went
missing and this is who she is, you know, I mean,
there there's some ways to do it. I mean, there's
this there's people out there, like say, if if her
husband had died saying they had no kids, or maybe
their kids had died or whatever, and they didn't have
too many remaining family or friends or anything like that,
and she decided to just go off and kill herself,

(30:00):
you could just say something on the order of, you know,
I'm going to move back to the East Coast and
live with my relatives, So throw me a going away party,
and I'm gonna miss you guys, and goodbye, and I'll
send you a postcard once in a while, and then
just leave and and nobody knows and where you've gone to, everybody,
every everybody loses touch. But none of those people are
gonna file a missing missing person's report just because we
haven't sentible Letter's true, you're just reading ahead? Is what's

(30:23):
happening here? Are you going to talk about that? I
was going to talk about my other favorite theory that
people have, which I think is probably the most explanatory
of them all. You know sixty three, that's about when
husbands start to pass away. And one of the things
um that medical examiners noticed because they did While they

(30:45):
did not do an invasive autopsy, they did examine her body.
She had a C section scar, so she did have
children at one point. So it's this sort of poetic
idea of they didn't have any family. Really, she had
her husband, they had a baby, and it died. She

(31:06):
was fine with it as long as he was alive.
They tried again and again again. It didn't happen. This
is a really flushed story, let's be honest. You know,
I'm I'm embellishing. But her husband dies, she's depressed about
that and relapses into depression about her dead baby thirty
odd years ago, and decides to kill herself, has one

(31:27):
last Christmas with the family, and then kills herself. Well,
and I can I can see some credens in that
now the she's in the children's section because she lost
a child, I don't know per se that that I
would follow along with that. I mean, it's quite plausible
that she I mean, obviously she's got the scar, so

(31:47):
she had at least one child. Might not have died
as a baby or toddler. It might have grown up
to be an adult who then died as a young adult.
That's true. Although what I know about Arrence is that
to them, their baby is always a baby, right, And
and so what I what I'm saying, or what I'm
getting at, is her being in that section of the

(32:13):
graveyard is not necessarily indicative of she lost her child
while it was a infant. That's true, But I I
also agree with that, I don't necessarily think it was
like baby died, you know what. That was my embellishment
on that story. So let's just say, all right, they
had a kid and it died at some point, at
some point. I think it's more plausible to believe that

(32:36):
it might be that that was just the remotest corner
of the cemetery or the darkest with at least street lighting,
and that her murderers decided that would be the operable
place to do her in. He's really sure, he is.
I'm out of theories, you know, this one. It's there's
just it's odd. The only thing that I can think

(32:58):
of of the stories we've been given that I like
is the amateur angle. It's the only one. Of course,
of course you do, of course I do. Of course
that makes sense to me. I don't know, yeah, I mean,
you know, I've talked about I like the Marjorie one,
and I and I recognize that I pretty much only
like that for like the really poet poetic symmetry that

(33:20):
it gives, you know, that this girl disappears and then
is also you know, dies in mysterious circumstances, their nice bookends.
Is it really that feasible? Probably not no, But you know,
this is one of those stories that you kind of
get to pick whatever theory you like, because chances are
good it's never going to be solved. And you know,

(33:41):
for me to believe in my heart, probably neither of
these mysteries are going to be solved. So it's very
easy for me to be able to say, oh no,
that's totally what happened there, and nobody's really ever going
to be able to tell me otherwise. So there you go.
So cool. Yeah, so that's how I feel about it. So,
anyway to solve the mystery, Yes, her name really is
Jane Doe. Yeah, yeah, that was you know, that's the

(34:05):
My favorite joke that I came across was that people
were like, Wow, maybe her name was actually Jane Doe.
I mean, somebody's got to be named Jane Doe, right, real,
Jane doll Is you know, actually let me get my
phone book? Ye. So yeah, I guess that's kind of
it is one of those ones. I guess I've been
kind of on a streak of like kind of unsolvable mysteries. Yeah,

(34:28):
that's like like Wheelhouse right now. Yeah, Okay, you need
to come up with the ones that we can actually solve. Okay,
next week maybe, But I I do think we've pretty
definitively established that this was indeed a murder, all right, No,
I don't think so. So if you'd like to see
the pictures that we were talking about and debating, they're
going to of course be on the website that's Thinking

(34:49):
Sideways podcast dot com. You can also listen to our
show there, or you can listen to our show on iTunes,
which you are probably doing. If you are doing that,
if you would take the time to give us a
rating and a comment, it's much appreciated. I know, I know,
I don't read or comment any of the podcast I
listened to, so it's a big ask. But just do
it for me, because we're friends. Yes, yes, we are too.

(35:14):
So you can also stream us on Stitcher if you
forget to download and you're just craving something insideways because
I know all of you are constantly going through you know,
withdraw UM like us on Facebook, and you can always
send us an email, UM if you have theories about this,
if you just want to share something, if you have
story ideas, Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com, and

(35:38):
I think we actually have a couple things to share. Yeah,
off of our weapon, people send us, People actually send
us all kinds of mail. Occasionally we pick a few
good ones off the top of the heat. There are
a couple of really good ones this week. Actually, Yeah, no,
do you want to go first? Yeah? Yeah, no, I
I totally got this one. So we got an email
from a guy named Denzel who lives down in act

(36:00):
in California, Washington. I wish it was, but it's not.
But he says, what's up, TSP. I love that we've
already got an abbreviation. Yeah, mine has also got a
great salutation. Yes, uh, he says. Uh. He said he's
a freelance illustrator, and so he spends his job every

(36:23):
day is you know, sitting down and doing illustrations, and
so he's listening to headphones. You know, we are the
perfect outlet for that, So concentrate on something else. I
was gonna say, good mindless listening. Yeah, backheaded compliment, but
he did. He did share with us a little something funny.
And I know I shared you with this with you, Joe,

(36:45):
and I know you enjoyed this. Is he was saying
that he was listening to the yat Love Pass incident episode.
Let me go ahead and get this right. I still
remember my favorite joke. Uh. Joe said, it was Chupacapper
who opened the tent, lit a cigarette stood there. The hikers,
struck with fear of secondhand smoke, ripped their way out

(37:07):
of the tent. Yeah that was a good joke. Yeah, yeah,
that was a good joke. He evidently laughed so hard
he almost messed up his work. So wait, way to go,
you know, causing the guy or whatever. He glad you appreciate.
He enjoyed it, and he had some some interesting theories
about what else could have caused it. And we went
back and forth on a couple of emails, and he's

(37:28):
given us a couple of story ideas which I really like,
which you're not things that we'd normally do, but we're
definitely gonna have to look into some of these. Yeah,
and the good Yeah, they seem like they're going to
be big endeavors. Yeah, they're They're not gonna be easy,
but I think I think they're gonna be fun. It's
gonna require like jetting to Europe. It's going to be
kind of like the DaVinci Code. Yes, we're on the

(37:50):
DaVinci Did you like watch that movie recently year? No?
Actually I never watched the movie. I read the book.
Oh excuse me, How ignorant of me to imply that
were watching him. Um So my listener mail that I
like is from a woman named Nancy, and she says, hello,
team you guys were a team. So she really likes

(38:14):
our podcast too, because everybody really podcast. But she had
some things to say about Goldbecky Tempe, which, like who doesn't, right,
Her theories are pretty awesome, let's be honest here, and
actually Steve of course thinks they're extra awesome. They're a
lot like his theory. Um. Nancy thinks that maybe there

(38:35):
was some kind of cast system that happened in this
society that built Goldbecky Tempe, and that they did some
selective reading which made them super intelligent, even perhaps she said,
purging unwanted babies. You there's presidents for that, as she mentions,
there are a lot of tribes that there's proof of

(38:55):
that happening in other times anyways, so you know, and
then there of course would have been an uprising or something,
and she's got a lot of really cool theories about that.
So I just wanted to give a little shout out
to a Nancy for these great theories because stuff I
hadn't really thought of. I'm sure Steve thought of it.
Of course Steve thinks about weird stuff like this, but

(39:16):
I didn't really think of it. So thanks for pointing
that out to us. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, we will consider that.
Next time, we might do a rerunder of Colbecky Tompion.
There's enough information we could do. Yeah, at least, I guess.
Send us an email if you want us to know
all of your awesome theories, because there are better theories
than we have out there. Yeah, we're talking about anyways,

(39:41):
Marjorie West. Yeah, not by murder by everybody,