CLASSICS (Bonus Episode): Dennis Pfohl!

(00:02):
Big Food and Beyond with Cliff andBobo. These guys, are you fav
It's so like Shay subscribe and radeit five star and me greatest on Quesh
today listening a watchie him always keepit's watching. And now your hosts Cliff

(00:28):
Berrickman and James Bubo Fay. Hey, what's going on Cliff? Nothing much
man, Just excited for tonight's interview. Yep, we got a good one
tonight. We got the legendary Dennisfull out of Colorado. Yeah. Yeah,
We've been trying to rope Dennis intothis for a long time and we
finally managed to schedule him in.And for anybody who doesn't know who Dennis

(00:50):
is, Dennis is a longtime bigfooter. He has had some first hand experience
with a lot of rather famous situationationsover the years, not the least of
which, of course, is theEricson Project. But he's a great bigfooter
unto himself as well. He's beendoing this for a long time. I
venture to say decades, But Imean, why listen to me, man.

(01:11):
We got when we got Dennis onthe phone, let's go straight to
him. Dennis, how are youdoing this evening? I'm doing good cliffs
in Bobo. Thanks for having me, love it. Thanks so much for
coming on, man, I reallyreally appreciate it. Yeah, thank you
so Dennis. For people who don'tknow who you are, why don't you
give us a little background on yourself. How long you've been doing this bigfoot

(01:34):
thing, maybe what got you intoit, and then we'll jump into the
meat of the conversation. Well,I don't want to bore anyone too much.
Is you know, like like manyof us out there that get you
know, got into big footing,is we kind of uh, we kind
of got pushed into it involuntarily.We uh, you know, we're we
were big campers and outdoors people herein Colorado and you know, raise my

(01:57):
kids, doing a lot of appingand stuff here in the mountains, and
just had several experiences over a coupleof years back around the year two thousand,
ninety nine, two thousand of campingup in the high country here in
Colorado, and these experiences, youknow, like I said, I'd done

(02:17):
a lot of outdoor stuff and thesethings were just troubling to me because the
experiences were unusual, you know,just unexplainable, at least in my mind,
and I didn't really think bigfoot.I just thought maybe people or bears
that were acting strange around her campsat night in the dark, you know,

(02:40):
that kind of stuff. But Ijust couldn't. I just couldn't,
you know, come to grips withwhat had happened in those particular areas.
You know, we did a lotof fishing and hiking in all that good
stuff outdoors. And then when bigfootbecame part of the equation back then and
suddenly this was a reality, itchanges your whole your whole way of life,

(03:05):
right, it changes the whole paradigmeverything you've ever believed in thought.
And then in some ways it's kindof like, all right, I get
to go outdoors and not only finishor hike or hunt, but now I
get to, you know, dothis big footing thing, and that that
is just a whole, like Isaid, a whole new dimension that adds
to I think, the incredible excitementof life of living. You know,

(03:36):
everyone's got stories, but you're oneof the few peple that's actually got real
legitimate sasquatch footage. That was,Yeah, the time I spent with the
Erickson project, you know, thatwas five years from two thousand and five
to roughly twenty ten, when whenthey kind of you know, holed out

(04:00):
of that whole situation. It waskind of it didn't come to an end
that I would have hoped to haveseen, you know, but it was
time, and I'm glad that it'sbehind me now, I really am.
I mean, I've had some experienceswith that guys that I just wish,
you know, words can't convey.I couldn't try to convince anybody what happened

(04:26):
there. You know, what weexperienced, what we've seen told me for
sure that these things are absolutely realand they're incredible. But you'd have to
been there, I guess, isall I can say. I wish that
it would have gone different in severalways, and that's you know, the
main one was if we could havehad better cooperation from the people we were

(04:49):
working with, if you know,we could have been able to do things
the way we wanted to do there. Now I'm going to say that,
you know that it could have turnedout better, but I don't really know
that. You know, this isa subject that it's just so hard and
difficult to try to get evidence,a good evidence, you know, evidence

(05:11):
that stands on its own that youknow, you don't have to uh,
you know, you don't have toexplain that. How's that call, Cliff?
It stands on its own. Notsubjective, you're talking about objective evidence.
You're talking not subjective where you needsomebody the core objective evidence that stands
on its own, you can youcan analyze the evidence without without necessarily knowing

(05:34):
the context, although sometimes the contexthelps, like the Patterson Gimlin film or
a footprint for example. Before westart, you know, meta talking about
this whole situation, you said somethingreally important that it's earlier. It's basically
like, you know, unless youwere there, you just can't know.
Basically you didn't. Those weren't thewords, but that was the gist.

(05:55):
But you were there. You wereone of the people who actually lived at
the property often on through the years. You and Leela, I know you
personally, I consider you a friendand a fellow researcher, et cetera.
But you know, to get thestory of the ericson project offline, well,
that's like a full time endeavor thatwould probably take weeks because it's been
buried under so much nonsense, hogwash, myth legend and stretching of the truth.

(06:20):
But you're a witness, you're involvedin that, you were involved in
at the time, you were onthe site. Can you kind of just
give us the gist of how itbegan and some of the highlights and how
the thing ended at the very endof the project, you know, the
whole thing started. And I knowyou guys were going to be a faro
at the time. And do youguys remember when that report came in.

(06:43):
That was in June of two thousandand five. It came in as actually
the initial report came in from theneighbor next door who lived next door to
these people, and it was itwas the it was the son in law,
I want to say, it wasthe son in law of the neighbors
who had come over to hang outwith with his girlfriend or something and something.

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There was a big commotion next doorand the sheriff showed up and some
other stuff happened. And these people, they lived fairly close to each other,
but their property lines dropped way backin the back down Kentucky. If
you've been to that part of Kentucky, it's a lot of the homes are
built on what they call above thehollows on these little rural roads, and

(07:31):
it's it's pretty well back country outthere, right. The hollows behind these
homes are very thickly wooded, veryheavily wooded, and in fact, I
was told on a number of occasions, even the people that lived there and
outdoors guys, the enthusiasts don't gointo the hollows that much. It's just
that it's overgrown. It's like ajungle, and it really is. I

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mean it's a it's an eastern jungle. I mean it's you know, thickets
and thick woods and underbruke rush andsome of it's not very easy to get
through. But they wouldn't go downto these hollows. Well, this this
house where they were sitting, droppedoff behind the house right into a deep
hollow like that, and the neighborswere next door, they lived, you

(08:15):
know, I want to say,sixty seventy yards from them was this other
house and their home dropped off twoback behind this hollow. Well, they've
been there for a while, andup to that point, I think they
dismissed a lot of the strange stuffis you know, just you know,
people will just ignore some of thestuff that happens around there. They just

(08:35):
kind of go into the house atnight and not pay attention. Well,
this couple had moved in and thewoman that was involved, she had grown
up on that house, and accordingto her, her mother was feeding wild
animals behind their house at night.Now this is a very rural and poor
part of Kentucky, so these peoplewere not very well off, and you

(08:58):
know, just one of those poorerareas. And she would tell her as
a young girl, when she wasfour or five, she said she could
remember her mom to, you know, take the dinner scraps out behind the
house and put them out to thetree line and feed the wild animals.
But she would follow her mom outthere, and her mom would put this

(09:22):
stuff out and go back towards thehouse. And they said they'd hear sounds
or weird things back there, thatthey wouldn't pay too much attention. It
was too dark, you know.And one night she said she was looking
out the back window of her house, and at that time, they had
an outhouse right at the tree line, you know, back behind the house,
and you know, it's about fiftysixty yards from the back of the

(09:43):
house. And she said that shesaw this man look like a man that
was an upright figure standing next tothis outhouse. It was in the dark,
but she could see the silhouette andshe said that the thing that troubled
her was this man head was ashigh as the roof of the out house,
which had to be, you know, seventy eight nine foot tall.

(10:05):
And she asked her mom about it. Her mom said, well, that's
just your cousin, you know.She give her some excuse it, you
know. Her mom animated. Sheknew what it was, but she really
didn't want to scare her tell her. But later on she found out that,
you know this, these things werecoming up and taking these dinner scraps,

(10:26):
and as she got older, shefelt it. She felt compelled to
continue to put food out. Asher mom moved out and her family moved
out, she inherited this house,but she felt compelled to still take food
and put food in the back forthese things because for some reason, she
think she thought she had to feedthem. But I'm getting way ahead of

(10:46):
myself, guys. Sorry, letme get back to how that started.
The neighbors saw this commotion and thesheriff it showed up, and all this
stuff had happened, and he hadsubmitted the report to the BUFRORO and said,
basically in his report, hey,we saw some weird stuff in our
neighbor's house. They're not saying whatit was, but my dad said he

(11:11):
saw this thing that looked like abigfoot and it scared the hell out of
them, and I wanted you guysto know. That was basically the short
of the report. And then oneof our local investigators, I think his
name was Greg Clay, had goneout there to look at it, just
talk to the people. And thenStan Courtney also he was I think he

(11:35):
was several hours away. He decidedto go out there and meet with them.
And when they started spending time thereon the property, which didn't take
long, I guess they actually witnessedone of these things off the side of
the road, big red glowing eyesout eight foot tall, you know,
back in the trees, and theycame away from that location and shot.

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Because these guys were like, well, we really didn't expect, you know,
any of this to happen. Wejust thought we were going to go
talk to some people and boom,all of a sudden, we find ourselves
in this really active situation, andthen they got Matt involved, and Matt
went out there and as you guysknow, he took some recording equipment.

(12:22):
But the husband of the woman wholived there had known by then two and
he took the camcorder down and eventuallygot some footage. We didn't all get
to see it for a while,but there was one walking down in the
trees, down in the very thicklywooded area down below this pond, and
we get about two or three secondsof this thing just kind of walking from

(12:43):
the right to the left, andwe can see it from the side view.
A lot of that footage and stuffthat we collected from that location was
taken by her, by the womanwho had this ongoing relationship with these things,
and the husband of her also gota couple pieces, you know.
But we collected some pieces of footage, like a piece of a couple pieces

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of thermal imaging footage. This wasearly on. We were using some antiquated
old rathe on two fifty d's andhad issues trying to feed you know,
recording units and getting good dependable feedsfrom the units to the recorders and older
technology when it comes to game cameras. Yeah, we did have game cameras

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out. We had you know,thermal imaging units again older stuff, but
you know, this is back whenthat technology was very expensive still and not
very reliable. And you know,some of the stuff we got was just
very short, you know, piecesthat you couldn't really make much detail out
or get much information from unfortunately.But she was able to collect a few

(13:58):
pieces of footage that I think somepeople have seen, like the sleeping footage
and one that they call them Matilda, the facial footage where it's sitting down
in the trees. And but youknow, for me, the entirety this
this project, I always was tryingto always trying to gather more substantial evidence

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again stand something that stands on itsown, not subjective, but something that
stands on its own, you know, longer, lengthy pieces of footage,
more details and and anything that happenedaround there. I tried to encourage them
to constantly carry cameras and film,and that was difficult. It was hard

(14:41):
for us to get cooperation from themto do the things we wanted them to
do. They were very adamant abouta lot of things, you know,
privacy and and uh doing things theway they wanted to do it, so
we had a lot of a lotof issues and and resistance in many ways.
But again, you know, wedid get stuff. It's just I

(15:05):
wish it was better. I wishthat we could have accomplished more. But
you know, I look back atwhat we did do and you know it
is something. Stay tuned for moreBigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bogo.
We'll be right back after these messages. Historically, I think you got the

(15:30):
very very first thermal footage of asasquatch. Ever am I Am I right
about that? Or we we thinkwe did. Yeah, we believe we
did. And you know what wasinteresting? Cliff touching on the subject,
and I feel like I'm going allover the place. I don't talk about
this too often, so forgive me. I'm not very polished when it comes
to speaking about it. But you'rea good company. Story about that?

(15:56):
Oh right, Well, this thermalfootage that we have, Gene, we
well, I just don't want totake a lot of time, but basically
we had we could not stand inthe fields and hold cameras up and expect
to get anything. Luckily, wewere surrounded by a lot of thick Kentucky
woods, and these things would comefrom different directions and angles. So during

(16:21):
our time when we were there tryingto collect more video evidence, we would
go out in the fields in theevening and at night, sometimes during the
day, but mostly at night,of course, and we would try to
collect footage. And most of thetime we didn't get anything. Guys.
I mean it was I spent countlesshours, I mean hundreds, if not
several thousand hours sitting out in treestands and you know, out in the

(16:42):
dark in the fields and the rainand the snow and the wind, you
know, and most of the timeI didn't see her get anything. But
the few occasions that we did,you know, was just so exciting when
you knew that they were out there, they were you know, real close.
And in this one particular occasion,and now Leila was working with us

(17:03):
then on their property and they hadan old barn in the back, and
we had devised a plan to takesome thermals or rape on two fifty ds
out to this old barn and hidein the barn well before dark and you
know, sneak in there and thentry to hide and then stay back in

(17:25):
there and hope that these things wouldcome out. We'd ask the woman to
bring some food out or whatever.She does come out and talk to them,
and she can coax them out ofthe woods, so maybe we can
get a you know, a videoor a shot of them. Well,
this particular night, I think shehad gone out and she had done some
talking and stuff for a while,and then she went back to the house,

(17:45):
as she was apt to do quitea bit. She would go back
in the home and let us doour thing outside till midnight one two o'clock
in the morning. And we satout there for hours in the back of
the barn. And what we haddone, guys, is we'd cut these
little holes in the back of thebarn. They let us cut these little
holes in this old wood of thebarn, right and and we had it

(18:07):
just large enough the lens of thisthermal camera would fit into it, so
we could view out the back ofthe barn towards the tree lines in the
hollow where we you know, weknew that they were coming out by this
old pond and stuff, but wherewe knew they were coming out. And
again, I was sitting there onenight, and I'm trying to recall exactly

(18:30):
what happened. But I've been therefor quite a while and hadn't seen anything.
And with this thermal imaging, youknow, you could see a mouse
running around out there, you know, one hundred yards away. You can
see a little pinpoint dot, youknow, running around with the thermal You
guys don't how the thermals work,not anything that you know, every everything
warm blooded, it's going to showup and you know, look like a

(18:51):
spotlight out there in the dark withthe thermal imager because of the you know,
the way they work. Everyone thatknows how a thermal imager works understands.
You know that it's the heat thatcreates the image, you know,
the radiation of the body heat.And so I'm watching this thing and nothing
has been going on, and I'mliterally falling asleep and getting ready to just

(19:12):
call it quitch. That night,I remember seeing this little faint glimmer or
faint, faint little shine down nearthe tree line, and this thing is
dropping. The land drops down significantlyright when it goes in the tree line.
So this thing's walking up this likeincline through this very thick trees and
brush, and I see it kindof come up and it's back in behind

(19:37):
all the trees, so I can'tget a pool image and don't know exactly
what it is, but I cansee it's fairly large. And then as
it got close to the edge ofthe trees, I realized it was one
of them. And I don't knowwhich one, but it was it was.
It was upright, it was bipedal, and it just was standing behind
all the thick foliage. Guys,it's it's pitch black, it's dark outside.

(19:59):
There's not even a move right,and I'm in This thing is about
one hundred yards away down in thetrees, and I'm in the back of
the barn. I thought I waspretty well hidden, and I hear a
rock hit the back of the barn, right, So that had happened several
times, so apparently they knew wewere in the barn, but they would
they would literally throw rocks at thebarn, and we would think we're pulling

(20:21):
something over, you know, pullingthe wool over their eyes lowly, and
they knew that we were there.I don't think we ever really surprised him,
but you know, we heard arock hit the barn several times,
and whatever this thing was back therein the trees. And so here's the
interesting thing. It was behavior iswhat really fascinated me, because when I

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reviewed that footage later, this wenton for about three I want to say,
three and a half four minutes.It was back behind these this very
thick foliage, and it wouldn't comeout of the foliage and stood behind this
foliage and it kind of was lookingtowards us, towards the barn. And
then eventually it turned and it leavesand it walks back down at an angle,

(21:03):
kind of in the same direction itcame from, and disappears back into
the thick foliage. Well, what'sfascinating again, was the way it behaved
pitch Black. We're hiding in thebarn. We think that it doesn't know
where there, but I think itdid. It never came out of the
trees, but it's behavior back andbehind that it was swaying. You could
see it. Once it kind oflocked in on the barn, it started

(21:27):
rocking a little to the left andto the right. And I know we've
heard of other people describing him doingthat, you know, kind of doing
that rocking motion. You know,you guys have heard people describe that behavior
from time to time right. Ohyeah, yeah, it was doing that.

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But I couldn't tell if it wasjust that it was trying to look
around the foliage towards the barn ornot, because you could see it lean
out a little further and then goback in and kind of go to the
left and then back to the right, swinging a little further out to the
right. Odds the second or twoand look and then go back behind.
And it did that, and itnever stopped really moving. It just kind
of, you know, kind ofrock and swayed subtly and sometimes a little

(22:10):
bit more aggressively, but it justsat back there the entirety of this time,
kind of looking towards that direction,and then suddenly, without warning,
it just turns and it's gone.It's just walking down the hill and leaving
again back into the trees. Sohere's the behavior that really, you know,
I guess I should have known this, but it was fascinating in that

(22:30):
it's pitch black. We can't seenothing with their eyes as with human eyes.
Right without this camera, I hadnever known that it was there.
But it still acted so cautiously andso carefully that it wouldn't even come out
behind thick foliage in this pitch black, thinking that we might have been around
there was It was fascinating to mebecause that tells you that we really,

(22:56):
you know, we just don't understandthese creatures. They're they're just they're just
incredibly stealthy and very very careful onyou know, trying to show themselves or
or you know, allowing us tosee them. But it was fascinating.
That was just a little behavioral thingthat I just found extremely fascinating. You

(23:19):
know, how did it know thatI couldn't see in the dark? You
know, how do they know that? They must know that, right,
but at the same time, they'restill so cautious and careful not to come
out from behind that bush. Ifit had come out from behind that bush,
I still wouldn't have been able tosee it. It was too too
dark, you know, without theaid of that that thermal cam. So

(23:40):
anyways, I just found that fascinating. Yeah, and I've often thought about
that because now we have several piecesof footages of these things and they're always
hiden even in the dark, andlike a long time ago, I kind
of thought to myself that back whenwe didn't have a lot of footage,
I might have even spoken to youabout this one point, Dennis, that
I definitely they're hiding from us inthe dark, and the reason for that

(24:02):
is probably something like I always thinkabout, you know, my own experience,
and you know, sasquatches are smart, don't get me wrong, but
they're not you know, doing mathor you know, using fire and stuff
like that. They're not. They'renot doing that kind of stuff with their
intelligence. They're applying at else how, you know. So when I think
back to my experience and I rememberonce and tying this back into what we're
talking about here, when I wasyoung, like maybe about I don't know,

(24:25):
ten nine seven somewhere in there,and I learned that dogs seeing black
and white, you know, insteadof color. You know, they don't
have color vision like we have.I couldn't wrap my head around that.
It's just what it was outside ofmy own experience, and therefore I had
hard time conceptualizing that. Like Ididn't even know how you would know,

(24:45):
because I didn't know about rods andcones and those sort of you know,
eye cells at that time. ButI couldn't really wrap my head around it.
I kind of think that that's wherethey're coming from is that like,
well, yeah, they can seein the dark just fine. And here
are here, we are running aroundkind of like them. They must look
at us and realize and just likewe look at them and say, wow,
that's a lot like me. That'sweird. And so I think that

(25:07):
they kind of give us credit.Where does not do that? They think
we have night vision just like theydo. Therefore they just treat us like
them. Yeah, yeah, that'sthat's true. I could definitely see that.
I mean, it's I almost thoughtit was just very odd that they
would that, even with all theadvantage they have, you know, with
their stealthiness and how they can movethrough that thick stuff. They move through

(25:30):
that stuff like a mouse. Okay, so here you got this large bipedal
creature and at things moving through thisthick, dense foliage and it's hardly making
any sound at all. I mean, this is some other experiences we've had
in the past. So that combinedwith its behavior that night, you know,
I couldn't I probably would never haveheard it approach. I definitely couldn't

(25:53):
see it in the dark. Yetit was so extremely cautious about even you
know, showing itself or making itselfvulnerable by you know, coming out into
the open the way just I don'tknow, I mean, I know we
all knew that they're that way tosome extent, but to actually see that
behavior was fascinating for me. Soyeah, yeah, we all have we

(26:15):
all have models what we think sasquatchesare. But when you're like, I
had that experience recently and that onewasn't around me, but I got the
track one for a little while.I pulled some casts and stuff like that.
Just is about a month and ahalf two months ago, and the
stuff the thing was going through justbut like the fact that let alone,
I mean, the witness was there, he heard it moving around and stuff

(26:37):
through there. You know, butwhen I saw where this thing walked and
I listened to the witness who heardit go, and uh, and the
speed with which it went through thisstuff relatively quietly, like you were saying,
and this one, this wasn't tryingto sneak around. It's phenomenal to
see where these things choose to walkand the stealth and quietness with which they

(26:59):
walk there. It's staggering. It'sit's actually kind of scary in some ways.
Yeah, you you you begin toreally see how they live, the
way they do, how they get, how that we we know so a
little about them because as you saidearlier, Cliff, I think we're trying
to relate our own experiences, inour own our own abilities to these because

(27:23):
they're upright, they're bipeal. Wethink that they're you going to have a
lot of the same mannerisms and abilitieswe do, but they go so far
above and beyond even even our bestsensibilities, you know, our our ability
to hear and see and even asyou said, just leaving sign behind if

(27:45):
they don't want to leave sign.They're just masters at you know, evasion
and stealth and it's just extraordinary.So that's why, you know, you
start to think when you find aprint, which we did find a few,
Now we didn't find that many,but you know, one of the
ones that really struck or you know, stood out to me was an experience

(28:07):
that we had towards the end ofthe project where it was January. We
had a fresh snowfall a couple ofthree inches, and the woman had gone
out and put food out at theedge of this tree line near there was
a lot of tobacco fills out there, so you have these big, wide
open areas. I want to describethat, so you kind of have in

(28:29):
your minds I understand what I'm talkingabout. But you got these large open
areas, open fields, and thenlike like I said, a lot of
them are they're growing tobacco and stuffon. So uh, in the winter,
these things are just pretty well barren, right, and then it's surrounded
by all these thick, heavy treelines and all four sides. And she
would walk out to the edge ofone of these and then go right at

(28:52):
the into the tree line and talkor does what. You know, she
had some things she would do tosee if they're around. They weren't always
around, guys, they were notlike always there. They would come and
they would go, and you know, a couple three or four days,
she wouldn't hear anything from them.Sometimes two weeks she wouldn't hear anything from
them. And then suddenly they wouldjust be there and she would know they're

(29:14):
around because she'd go outside to feedthe dogs or do something outside and she'd
hear a snap from the trees,a deliberate crack from a branch or you
know, a sound. These thingsmade a very distinctive sound. Out there
that it is like a grunting sound. I've recorded it several times. I
can produce it very well because I'veheard it so many times. But it's

(29:37):
basically just a very guttural like that, just sound, just like that.
You would just hear it come fromthe trees, and so she would know
they're around. So then she wouldgo out later and take you know,
her pancakes or or you know,whatever food that she had. Sometimes she'd
just give them leftovers from dinner,but she would put them out there and

(30:00):
hope they would take it. Now, she would put food down, guys.
But then again, even if wefelt felt they were there, they
wouldn't always take it. It wasn'tone of those things that, oh yeah,
you could put food down, juststand there and wait from the ticket
and you've got something right. Theywere always ahead of us by I don't
know, ten steps. And whenwe thought we could trick them and full
them and see them and do wetried every angle we could think of.

(30:22):
They were just so unpredictable. Theywouldn't come into the same spot all the
time. They would approach areas fromdifferent directions all the time, never from
the same direction twice never at thesame times, they didn't take the food
she'd put out. Half the time, I'm gonna tell you that right now,
you know, sixty seventy percent ofthe time she probably the food would

(30:45):
get eaten by a cat or youknow, a stray dog or raccoons.
And we know that, you know, but you know there was a few
times that they did stay tuned formore Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo.
We'll be right back after these messages. But it is particular night she

(31:11):
had put food out and it hadjust known and I was there, and
she said that she thought she'd heardone of them. So we had went
back to the house, and wewere at the house for a good forty
five minutes to an hour, andI went back out with her husband to
the to the area that she hadput the food in the edge of this
field. And Cliff and Bobo,I know both you guys have found tracks

(31:37):
in all your time doing this,but here's what I came across, guys.
I came across the trackway that cameout of the tree line and it
went a big arc and a bigsemi circle in arc maybe one hundred and
fifty to one hundred and seventy flipprints in total. They came out of
the tree, went in an arc, and then went back towards where she

(32:00):
put the plate and went back intothe trees again. And it was only
minutes old in the snow, andI was elated. I was like,
I cannot believe what we just found. And I was so excited. And
I told them both, I said, I need to get out there.
I called Leli. I said,bring your your snow casting material, because

(32:22):
we had stuff there for that.We hadn't really got to use it at
the time, but we had,uh we had spray wax, the forensic
spray wax, you know, forsitting snow prints. And uh we went
back out there with with that andsome hydro cowl and I started to cast

(32:44):
three of the track, to castthe left and a right and a left
and I was expecting to walk thatthat whole you know, track line,
and try to find some better princesbecause the snow it was pretty coold.
It's fourteen degrees I believe at thetime, so the snow was fresh and
it was a little powdery. Itwas difficult, you know, to get
a good impression. But they werestill, you know, the tracks still

(33:06):
maintained pretty well. The shape ofthe track, you know, stayed in
there pretty well. So we sprayedseveral layers of the wax in there and
got it set up, and eventuallyI cast it, and two of the
three kind of blew out one sideor the other, but still got most
of it, and one of themturned out really, really pretty good,
and that's one I need to sendyou, still, Cliff. But it

(33:28):
was a seventeen and a half inchfootprint, showed all the toes and it
even had the impression of one ofthe oak leafs on the on the field
was still at the bottom of thatthat trapper and pressed down into it.
And what happened is I was planningto stay out there that whole night and
cast a bunch of tracks, andthey flipped out, and they didn't like

(33:52):
me doing it because she felt likebecause I was out there casting tracks that
I was going to scare them awayand they would freak out. And long
story short, as it turned intoa huge blow up in a fight with
the people because I was trying topress them to allow me to cast and
document all these tracks and they justdidn't want me messing around with the tracks,

(34:12):
but I was able to get threeof them out of there, and
again to this day, it wasone of those most disappointed. It was
bittersweet because I had this whole trackwayand I could have photographed it, but
it was the middle of the night. I did take some video of it,
but it's not very good quality becauseit's night and that you know that
the cameras are, you know yourvideo quality, the grades in the dark

(34:34):
and when you're using a little spotlight. It just just one of those bittersweet
moments where I just had to walkaway from it because it was very difficult
to do many of the things thatwe felt like we needed to do.
Leela ran into that quite a bitwith them, and I know, I

(34:54):
think you've talked to Leila several times, right, Bobo. I was in
contact with that whole time. Ialmost got to go out there and be
a roommate Adrian. When they firstwas going out there, I talked to
him a couple of times on thephone about because I was wide up and
like, man, I'm just gonnaworry on a fishy, but I can
jump off. At the time,I was like, because Lela didn't want
to trespass. She didn't want togo down to those hallers by herself.

(35:15):
She was trying to she's lobby.I'm like, dude, I will do
whatever it takes. I will crossproperty lines, I'll climb down them hallers,
I'll track them back to where they'resleeping. And agent almost did it,
and then he decided not to atthe last minute. For our listeners
who may not know, we haven'treally told them who Leelah is, and
I think a lot of people areprobably hearing these stories for the first time.

(35:37):
Leila she she's a Princeton graduate.She has a PhD. Is it
a wildlife biology or something like that. She I think she's still living back
easton Pennsylvania or something at this point. But yeah, she They had a
bona fide, legitimate, hardcore PhDliving on the property for years documenting whatever
came up, and I imagine someof that is some of the most thorough,

(36:00):
most scientific documentation that's ever been obtained. She lived on the on the
location for nearly five years of thatproject. Unfortunately, there was some ah
reconcilable differences between her and the couplethat made it very difficult for her.
You know, eventually too to doher research properly. So she kind of

(36:27):
spent the last few years there justyou know, analyzing any evidence we got
and processing stuff. Particularly at theend, she was very helpful with the
DNA when we were able to obtainwe got some hair samples from there,
guys. You know, we gotyou know, the unknown primate hair samples.

(36:49):
We got a number of saliva samplesoff the plates that we sent in
for testing. DNA testing. Alot of it started out through the DNA
I think was Paleo Labs Paleo DNAout of Thunderbey, Ontario. We were
sending them up there for a fewyears and uh, one of the one

(37:09):
of the scientists as working with upthere, one of the analysts up there,
I guess would be his title.He uh he basically told me,
he says, you know what,what these samples keep coming back as is
uh human contamination. And we knewat that point, you know, Leland

(37:30):
knew how to handle the materials wewere working with, and I did too.
We we knew what we were doingthere. We weren't you know,
we were very careful about contaminating,uh, you know, the the plates
that we were presenting to these thingswith the food on it, so we
were what we were trying to dois get the saliva samples from the place

(37:51):
that she would put out. Thiswoman would put out and we would we
would methodically handle them to minimize humancontact, rubber gloves, try not to
know, you know, get anyyou know, put a place underneath you
so you don't get cells falling ontoit or any other way to contaminate these
samples. So when we got theseplates back and we felt that they were

(38:13):
you know, the food was takenby the sasquatch there, that we could
take that sample and send it intothese labs and see, if you know,
we can have a DNA analysis doneon them and see what they come
back as. Wouldn't they eat themwith when they had syrup on they eat
the whole paper plate? Right,No, No, they didn't eat the
plate. What they do, Bobois they would lick the plate clean.

(38:36):
So she would put she would putsyrup on those plates with pancakes. But
it wasn't all with pancakes. Shewould put other food on there. Sometimes
it would be dinner scraps with bravy. But they would literally lick the plates
clean, and you know, leavingsaliva, which we felt like they had
to lift saliva on those plates becausethey literally licked clean. And it's at

(38:59):
one point she was placing peanut butteron bread, on sliced bread, white
bread, put peanut butter on there, and then put you know, or
syrup on it, and that peanutbutter when it puts, when it sticks
to the plate, it's like glue, you know how peanut butter is.
It would stick like glue to theplate. And they would literally let that

(39:21):
peanut butter clean off the plate whenthey did take it, when it wasn't
some other animal. When they tookit, we knew we were very confident.
We weren't one hundred percent sure,but we're confident that they actually took
the food off that plate. Takethat plate and Lelo would process it and
we would we would send it upto this DNA diagnostic or not DNA diagnostic,

(39:44):
Paleo DNA Labs in Thunderby, Ontario, And we worked with this guy
for several years and we had senthim I don't know, ten fifteen samples
and eventually the guy he told meon the phone, he says, you
know a Dennis. He says,I think what's happening here is we would
do now what's it called. It'sbeen a number of years. I forgot
what's it called. When they dothe uh, the initialing on a on

(40:08):
a sample to determine if it's acat or a dog, or a human
or a bear. Is a preliminary, yeah, just to determine species,
right, just to roll in orroll out other things. They would do
a base base pair or something likethat worked up and I'm sorry, guys,
I can't remember the name. It'sbeen a while, but they would

(40:29):
they would do that initial DNA testto check and see what if it,
you know, if it's something explainable, you know that that you know,
left their DNA on that plate,and in some cases it did come back
as you know, a cat orastray. But there was a few of

(40:50):
them, I want to say therewas between ten and fifteen of them that
what we come back with was wasa human and it came back as human
DNA. And so we said toourself, well, you know, we've
been doing this long enough, we'revery confident that we're not contaminating these samples.

(41:12):
But then at that time, I'vebeen talking to several other people who
said that they were doing also sendingin, you know, hair samples with
the with the skin tags at theat the at the bottom of at the
cluster of the hair, at thebase of the hair that will yield DNA,
and they were having the same problemswith with their samples. Is that
they were all being told that they'rebeing there, they're being contaminated, and

(41:37):
that that was explaining And I thinkeven were you guys aware of that incident
that Owen Caddy had up in WashingtonState I believe, or it might have
been Oregon, Glipp are you awareof that one. No, I haven't
heard much from Owen Caddie since probablytwo thousand and five or something like that.

(41:57):
No, yeah, okay, SoI spoke with Owen on the phone,
and I probably shouldn't be saying thisother than I can tell you that
Owen was on a location that hewas very confident. He was with a
researcher working with a family out inthe woods. I believe it was Oregon,
I want to say northern Oregon.But long story short is that this

(42:20):
family was having continuing visitations. Theyhad seen these things on their back porch.
They heard him walking back and forthon this covered porch in the back
of their home, and their housewas right up against the woods, and
they found trackways, and they'd seenthese things, you know. They were
getting into a freezer in the backof the house. There was a freezer,
a chest freezer or something back therethat he could put you know,

(42:44):
his game in, and that stuffwas disappearing. And they actually would hear
him get in there and open thelid and they would take this frozen meat
out of there. And then ifI remember correctly, what Owen told me
is that they had a incident happenedone night where he went out investigated himself
with the investigator and this said,I all just tap and it was still

(43:07):
fresh. He said that this thinghad come in on the backpaty or back
porch, had hit its head ona light bulb, apparently cut its head
or something that left blood on theporch that he ow and collected the sample
of that blood. And he saidhe knew it was one of them because
he could see the trackway coming outof the trees and over this juniper bush
or some ground hugging bush and hadstepped right over the top of this you

(43:30):
know, long strides and these bigfootprints in the snow, and it went
right back. It went up tothe porch and went back out. And
so Owen told me, he says, Dennis, I said, I was
sure I had it, and hehad sent his sample in and did the
base work up on that of theyou know, identification, and it came
back as human. And Owen said, after that he threw in the towel.

(43:51):
He said I was done. Ijust he says, I was confident
I had it, and they weretelling me it was contaminated. So you
know, at that point we're thinking, well, you know, maybe there's
something more to this. And MItalks with this Paleo DNA lab up and
British up in Ontario, Canada.The guy, you know, was well

(44:12):
aware of what we were doing.He knew what Adrian was doing. And
Adrian was paying pretty samples and theywere costing us several thousand dollars every time
we sent one up to have ittested, and we were just not getting
results. And eventually this guy says, well, maybe you need to have
a complete genome made up on that. Maybe next time you get a good
sample, just have a complete workup. And I said, well that's
something you could do, He said, well, I could, but the

(44:34):
problem is that the consumables and alab would cost so much money in this
time, he says, you're literallytalking, you know, one hundred thousand
dollars or more, and a lotof time to do this. So it
seemed like an insurmountable problem, youknow, for us to to have you
know, this, this this typeof test done. But we knew that

(44:57):
at some point there's got to besomething more to this, because it can't
be that every one of those sampleshas been contaminated by people. It just
can't be. I mean, there'sjust people from different areas that were confident
that there you know, we wehad moved far enough along that we knew,
you know, a lot of theseresearchers had known how to handle that
had to handle those samples properly withoutcontaminating or at least minimizing it, so

(45:22):
they couldn't all just be coming backas contaminated by humans. So there has
to be more to it. Andyou know, to this day, I
guess you guys already know you knowwhat Melboa's you know what her results have
come out to be. Now atthat point, I guy, I don't
know. All I can tell youis that I know that the sample we

(45:44):
collected and the samples that we collectedthere on the project, including the last
one which was a blood sample,I know that it wasn't contaminated and Leela
handled that very well. And Ican't tell you to the state you know
what what we're dealing with there.But you know, once once we submitted

(46:07):
that blood sample too to VELP,it was out of my hands, and
you know, I uh, Idon't know, you know again to this
day, what what uh what trulycould come out of that or if anything
useful will ever come out of that? You know, Yeah, I'm that's

(46:27):
sure. I I you know,I'm on record is basically saying I don't
think that was handled appropriately or well. I think so. I think that
science, if you want to callit, that is rather questionable and should
be double checked and double checked anddouble checked at you know, forever,
always always, always more and moreand more and to see what other results
from other people and other labs,et cetera. But I understand there's some
proprietary technology being claimed and all that, which is always a red flag.

(46:51):
I think that if you know oneperson has the key to the door and
that's it forever. Then what goodis that? Man? That's not science
that because science is about reproducing theseresults and the technology like that should be
shared to see what else might comeout of it. But you know,
when you were telling these stories,I was thinking, you know, I
haven't had any cool DNA stuff,unfortunately in my big footing career. But
I've been pretty close, you know, because I work with the guys from

(47:13):
the Olympic Project a lot. Andwhen those nests came out a few years
ago, it came out like therewere a product. But you know,
but like when the nests kind ofhit the news in the Bigfoot news wire,
I suppose a few years ago,it was really promising. And I
know Meldrum went out there and tookcore samples of several of the nests and
had some ed and a work doneon them. And they also got human

(47:35):
contamination in these, which is possible, of course, after all, humans
did, in fact, you know, collect the samples, but they were
careful to choose nests that humans hadnot laid down in yet and all this
other stuff. And I was talkingto doctor Meldrum about this and kind of
bounced just bouncing ideas around with them, you know, And and if these
things are what I think they are, and you know, I think they're

(47:55):
paranthropists. I think they were arobust soustralopithescene essentially. I've kind of gone
away from the giganto thing a bit. But although that's possible and on the
table as well, But I thinkthey're astralopithescenes, which is a direct human
ancestor. It's a hominin. Someof the more recent ones when extinct as
recently is you know, eight hundredthousand years ago, which is pretty recent.

(48:17):
So and especially the way you're describingit, I don't know exactly.
I don't know about DNA technology becauseyou know, once you go on that
path, that's all you're doing therest of your life. There's just so
much they know and learn. Ifthey're doing these preliminary studies, it makes
me kind of feel like, perhapsyou know, they were still focusing in
on the picture, so to speak. You know, you don't have to
have a photo, you don't haveto have a focused picture of Bobo to

(48:38):
know it's Bobo. And if thesethings we broke off from them, perhaps
you know less than a million yearsago or who knows, you know,
certainly less than two million years ago. Maybe I don't know. I'd have
to wonder if our DNA is actuallyall that different, because we share ninety
eight point what three percent four ofour DNA is absolutely identical to the bonobo,

(49:04):
the pigmy chimpanzee, and we splitoff from them six or eight million
years ago. And you know,so if you're talking about a factor of
three to five difference, their DNAmight be astonishingly similar to us. But
then again, like I say,to put in perspective, we sixty percent,
a full sixty percent of our DNAis identical to an earthworm, you

(49:27):
know, so uh yeah, youknow, those little percentage points you know,
mean a whole lot of difference.You know, because I can picture
I can picture the you know,some people out there are going, dude,
you're calling me an ape because I'ma human. Well, yeah,
you're an ape because you're a human, honestly. But and there's another side
of the thing, where like you'recalling bigfoots or yeah, I don't know,

(49:49):
there's both sides of that coin.I suppose, you know, people
they are mad that I call humansapes, And then people get mad that
I call sasquatches humans or vice versa. So yeah, no, I'm totally,
yeah, totally with you there.And that's the thing that frustrated me
is I felt like what we weredealing with was I felt like, for
the longest time, Cliff, thatwe were dealing with, well, the

(50:10):
people that we were dealing with werelooking for a grading for Gigantopithecus and they
were trying to find, you know, any indication of markers that were leaning
in that direction. So when thesesamples were sent in, if it didn't
instantly ping in that direction, theyjust wrote it off as contamination. Now

(50:30):
on the first admitted it very wellcould have been in some of those cases,
but with the propensity of the amountof samples we sent in, I
knew that all of them couldn't havebeen. And I knew that Leela was
handling the you know, the samplesproperly. She was disciplined there, she
was trained there, and the waywe collected them we were very careful to

(50:51):
avoid contaminating. So where I wasleaning with that is that I think that
what we were dealing with is somethingthat's so close to us and not saying
they were human. Obviously they're not. They possess things that we you know,
abilities and physical traits obviously that arebeyond ours. But mannerisms and behavior

(51:14):
is so human like. And that'sthe thing that I think that blows you
away when you're close to these thingsand you're around them along time. As
you guys know, the intelligence,the level of intelligence you're dealing with is
far beyond any animal you're used todealing with. You I felt like in
many occasions that was that was faceto face in the dark, maybe not

(51:35):
face to face, but face behinda tree or whatever to another human being.
That's a very high level thinking,intelligent, and almost knowing every step
we're going to take before we evenknow it. You know. So these
DNA samples, I'm thinking, well, that's what we got to be looking
for. Is something more leaning towardshuman in that aspect. And the amount

(51:59):
of so I know, you guysknow this story, but the DNA that
I clicked in the end was bloodand we had we had a significant amount
of blood. I mean, itwasn't it wasn't a huge puddle or any
but it was it was you know, maybe the size of your thumbnail,
you know, a nice big dropletof blood, and we had we had

(52:22):
submitted that sample to Todd Distel outof New York. Everyone I think knows
who he is in the big footingfield. But Leeli had sent a good
chunk of that sample to Todd atfirst because she had been interacting with Todd
for a while, and Todd rightaway came back as well, no,

(52:43):
that's just you know, that's justmore contaminated, you know, sample its
human. It's not it's not anythingimportant, it's just human. And that
was very disappointing to me because Iwas ninety I want to say, ninety
eight point nine maybe ninety nine percentsure we had that blood sample from one
of those one of those individuals.They're one of those big foot there on

(53:07):
the property. And so I wasvery disappointed with that. But I did
have some samples left over, somequantity of that blood sample left over,
and I ended up having to sendall of that to Melba. I Adriane
had talked to somebody. I'm stillto this day not really sure who it
was, but Adrian had been talkingto somebody and they had gotten Adrian touch

(53:30):
of me with Melba, and Melbawas willing to look at that blood sample
and some of our hair samples andsaliva samples and other things we had and
all of that stuff, and itended up going to Melba. And to
this day, I'm I'm pretty veryupset about giving away all of my samples

(53:51):
to one lab and one person becausethat's where it all ended up going.
And I think Todd had discarded hissamples early on, so this thing had
worked really hard to get this,uh, this blood sample just in some
ways uh just got you know,discarded and uh and properly handled them.

(54:15):
And again I'm still kind of bitterto that to this day. I wish
it would have held on to asyou know, a small bit of that
so we could have had something elseto send to another third party or fourth
party down the line to have it. We all wish that. Yeah,
repeatability is a key to science.You know, It's not just about handling
things correctly or knowing a lot offacts. You know, it's really repeatability.

(54:37):
You know, you can't send it, you know, you can't send
everything to one person. And I'mnot talking to you, Dennis. You
know this. You learned the hardway, unfortunately, and then we all
learned the hard way through you andin our own situations too. But when
people do collect things, if youhave thirty air samples, don't give them
all to anybody. Give two orthree to somebody and spread them around widely.

(54:58):
If you have, you know,a thumbnail size drip of blood somewhere,
scrape off a tiny little amount andhere, and send it to here,
send it there, send it toa bunch of other places as well.
Because one person saying something, it'sjust one person saying something, who
cares, who believes it doesn't matterif you have thirty people or to even
ten or five people singing the samesong, suddenly have a chorus of truth

(55:20):
there. And that goes a lotfurther amongst the scientists than anything else.
Yeah. Absolutely, And I regretthat to this day that I allowed that
to happen because I could have Icould have went, you know, I
could have just held onto a smallpiece and not said anything. But I
was obligated to, you know,to the people I was working with in

(55:44):
the project, and I didn't wantto be de seeple that way. And
I felt like maybe they knew better, you know, maybe they knew better
that I gave them, given themeverything I had there and I felt that
it was in good hands. Butyou know, again, in retrospect,
I'm thinking, man, I justwish it to held on to some of
that and and not you know,put all our eggs in that one basket.

(56:05):
But it is what it is.But it didn't definitely doesn't take much
blood. I mean, even asmall little pinpoint sample would have been adequate,
you know, And dang, itjust just one of those things there.
Regret there. So well, yeah, you know, anybody who has
no regrets in their big footing lifehasn't been big footing for very long.

(56:25):
Yeah, stay tuned for more bigfootand beyond with Cliff and Bogo. We'll
be right back after these messages.In the end, we thought we had
all these pieces of footage. Mostof them weren't very good, some of
them were fairly decent. I feellike there's a couple there that have been

(56:49):
criticized. But I wasn't there forthe facial footage of Matilda footage. I
wasn't there for that. I wasn'tthere for the initial pieces the pond where
it was walking past the pond,and the pancake footage. Matt did that.
When Matt took that with surveillance cameras. But I was there later on
and around when she got some otherinteresting pieces, like several pieces of footage

(57:14):
of them, you know, curledup in a feeble position to sleeping.
That was her. She was ableto get close to him. We weren't
involved in that. But that's real. Think that footage is legit? Yeah,
yeah, I do. I do, because I was around there enough,
Bobo, and believe me, theentirety of five years, in particularly

(57:35):
the first six months I was there, I was constantly looking for any kind
of questionable shenanigans or things that didn'tseem right. But I learned fairly quickly
that you know, when these thingswere around, you knew it, and
you knew how they acted and behaved, and she had the special bond with

(57:55):
them, and she could approach him. Not all the time, but sometimes
she get close to them. Andwhen she would do that, she would
even be uneasy doing it. Shefelt She even told me one time,
she said that she feels like she'sbetrayed their trust by trying to get footage
with the camera and it they didn'tlike it, and she was afraid sometimes
that they would hurt her. Idon't know if they ever had her before,

(58:19):
but she had some legitimate fears.It wasn't like a situation where you
know, maybe making it sound likethis is a place where she just go
at will and get whatever she wanted, but she couldn't do that. They
even were very unpredictable with her attimes. You know, they wouldn't allow
her to approach them, they wouldget mad at her, they would display

(58:39):
against her, they would you know, leff charge to other things that would
make her fearful as well at times. So you know, I had to
give her a certain amount of leewaythere and I would push her and I
would press her or to do more, get more, get out there and
get more footage. And you know, probably didn't help me sometimes it probably

(59:01):
you know, they they would getangry with me quite a bit too that
way. But again at the end, guys, I I we knew I
talked with Adrian a lot about thisin Lela, and we knew that the
footage wasn't going to be you know, the it just wasn't going to be
adequate be able to help push thisalong or get this mystery a little bit

(59:27):
more, uh, you know,down the road. So we felt like
DNA would be the one thing thatpeople can't really you know and you know,
deny or have problems with because youcan't you can't alter DNA. You
know, if you get a goodsample, that should come back and prove
that there's an unknown species there.Well, we set our goal in that

(59:49):
last few months and trying to getDNA, and we knew that they were
taking food and we knew that wecould put you know, plates out,
how do we get good samples becausesaliva wasn't cutting it and it wasn't substantial
enough according to our one lab wewere using. So we said to ourself,
well, let's try to get blood. And you guys remember the whole

(01:00:10):
you remember Meldrums. He did adocumentary where they went up to I believe
it was Snell Grove Lake was theone where they put the yeah, yeah,
the monster quests. Actually it's amonster quest, that's right, Yeah,
we're him and Kurt Nelson went upand they they found a snailboard.
All you guys know about the nailboard. I won't go in the details about

(01:00:32):
that, but we had even comeup with an idea to do that because
we knew that one of the gametrials they used not frequently, but that
they had used close to the property. We thought we'd bury one with just
a few nails sticking out. Butthen, you know, then we also
came up with an idea of puttingfish hooks out in the trees along the
trail in hopes that it would snaga piece of flesh or hair. And

(01:00:58):
all of these things that we werecoming up with. I felt we're just
too too barbaric, too brutal,because if we injured them, And of
course she felt that way too,that these were just things that you know,
just was a little too over thetop. But we were desperate to
try to get some some hair orskin or blood, you know, preferably

(01:01:19):
flash or something that you know isvery very pure. And eventually we came
to the conclusion, well, theyare taking these places of food, so
what we could do is we couldtry to get blood out of that.
And how do we do that?So what we we came up with this
plan and we took some uh,some sterile glass from just some thin glass

(01:01:44):
like you find in the drinking glassor something. Right when you break a
little you know, thin wall,drinking glass, it's fine glass. It's
sharp. We took some little shardsof that that we had sterilized, this
glass we had sterilized, and thenwe took a clean new paper plate and
a stack, and then we tooksome crazy glue and we put three of

(01:02:07):
these little shards, arranged them atthe very middle of this plate, and
put them in a semicircle, right, and arranged him so the little sharp
edges of this glass would just stickup just enough to just give you a
little bit of laceration, not cutyou deep, but set it up in
a way where it would just laceratejust enough to draw some blood. And

(01:02:29):
I mean, we painstakingly built thisplate just to make sure that we wouldn't
hurt him or you know, hurtanything that would take food off of that
very badly. Right, So wedid this, and then we took a
piece of bread with peanut butter andwe flopped it right over the top of
that glass, right, so thebread and the peanut butter was covering this

(01:02:51):
glass. And then we had hercover the whole thing with syrup. And
this was something, like I said, they really seemed to like because they
would clean the whole plate. Andthe idea was is that if they cleaned
the plate hopefully would get them tolast crate their lip or the tongue or
something, you know, and wecould get a little bit of blood that
way. I know it kind ofsounds brutal, but you know, the
tongue and the lips and the areas, the tissue in the mouth area heals

(01:03:15):
very quickly, and yeah, it'sthe least likely to get problems. So
we thought that would be probably themost the most useful way to try to
get something without creating a huge problem. You know. We did that and
for three nights we would we putthat out there, and nothing took this

(01:03:37):
food. But on that third night, she said that she thought she had
heard them back there, and weleft the plate and went inside, and
we came back out a couple hourslater, and we could see that it
had been moved, you know,it had been literally picked up and moved
and placed about twenty thirty feet awayfrom where we had left it, and

(01:03:58):
it was completely cleaned off, justlike they do. So we were pretty
confident that we thought that this isone of them. You know, that
I had actually taken this food,and I picked the plate up, was
wearing rubber gloves, picked the plateup, kept it far away from myself
and immediately put it into a newpaper bag, a large paper bag,

(01:04:19):
one of the like grocery bags,and we sealed it up, carried it
in and when we looked at itunder the light, we could see the
blood on the on the plate,and I got photos of that plate.
They took it over to Leela rightaway to the tour. She had a
little makeship ship lab in the backof the house and she processed it and

(01:04:42):
cut it up and sent the samplesout. And that part of that sample
is what went to Melba. Actuallya good part of it sample went to
Melba, and that's how we obtainedthat. And you know, like I
said to this day, we werejust confident it had to be one of
them because when animals took those plates, we knew it. They chewed the

(01:05:03):
plates are pretty good and they usuallyleft them in a spot, but most
of the time, nothing even touchedthe plate, nothing even touched the food
in the time that we left itout there. So we were very confident
that this was one of them thattook that plate. So that's how we
got that blood sample. You knowwhat the footage I really liked was I

(01:05:26):
think you got was the night footagewhere there's one walk and I think it
was left right then the female walkingdirectly away kind of waddling. Oh,
yes, that that piece of footagewas taken by her husband, and it
was it was through night vision.Bubble yeah, green, yeah, third
gin. Yeah. That's another oneof those things where I said at the
beginning of this, I told youguys, you had to be there to

(01:05:49):
really understand this. You know,people look at that and he said,
that's probably a guy in a suit. But listen, you know, I
was there enough. I've seen thesethings around that property and they're in their
element when they're in the trees,and they're very stealthy and quiet, you
know, and hard to even getclose to, let alone sea or even

(01:06:10):
that could be. I was standingnext to one less than ten feet and
I never knew it was there.And the only reason I figured out that
it was there was it finally gruntedright at me and I realized it was
like less than ten feet from myhead, right and otherwise I didn't smell
it, I didn't hear it.I didn't even know it was there.
It was real spooky to know thatthey're that good, and we're just totally

(01:06:33):
blind, dumb animals out there rightin the dark, and we're totally vulnerable.
But this piece of footage he hadgone into the barn. This is
the time when we were still workingwith him pretty good, and we were
trying to get more footage from him, and they were trying to get footage
ACRUSS, and we had outfitted themwith a good high definition sony HANDICAM hard

(01:06:58):
drive, you know, high deaffootage all that, with a good third
gen PBS fourteen night vision couple ofthat, and those worked pretty good in
the dark, but you still hadto have some light to get some usable
image. Otherwise it got really grainywhen it got pretty dark with no moonlight.
Right, well, this particular night, there was enough moon and he

(01:07:20):
had gone out to the bar,or actually to his garage and he was
sitting in the garage just what hetold me. I was there when he
took this footage, but he saidhe was sitting in the garage and had
been waiting there for several hours andhe had her come out put food out
near the garage, and he wassitting inside a darkened garage. Well,

(01:07:40):
there was no light on. He'sinside this garage with a window that pased
out the back, and now thiswindow had many blinds on it, and
he's sitting behind the many blinds,looking out through the backyard at the tree
line going down the back of theirhill. And he said that after a
while he saw movement, and sohe took the camera up and he saw
this thing coming towards where she hadput the food, which was near where

(01:08:04):
he was. And he said thathe turned the camera on, and as
the camera came on, this thinglooked right at the at the window and
saw him inside this darkened garage.I don't know to this day, I
don't know how. I said,did you have the light? Because we
had the the way we had thesecameras set up is that it had an
eye cup and you had to putyour eye to the eye cup. And

(01:08:27):
so I doubt that he had anylight leaking from the camera because he had
to look through the eye cup totake footage. And this thing saw him
moving inside of this darkened garage inthe dark at night. And he said,
what it did is it instantly spunaround on its I think he said
it was his left leg, butit was it was walking towards him,

(01:08:48):
and it instantly spun on its leftleg and started walking back in the other
direction, back down the hill.And he said, by that time,
that's when the camera got started recording. By the time he got the odd
button on and got it recording,what you see is it's walking away from
him, back down the hill,and it goes down a little ways and

(01:09:08):
then there's a patch of very tallweeds and it goes you see it go
to these to this, to thesetall weeds and stuff, and it kind
of turns sharply to its left andwalks behind his cluster of shrubs and weeds,
and it just stops there, andI guess it's looking back up towards
him, but you lose it assoon as it gets into the weeds.

(01:09:29):
He just kind of just totally loseit in that night vision because of the
quality of the you know, thefootage is just not very good. But
when they stop moving, you justcan't see him. They just blend in
so well. But that was thatpiece of footage. And he said,
what it was remarkable to me aboutthat Bobo was that he said that he
was in a darkened garage dot hehad a perfect trap set up, and
then it wouldn't see him, andsomehow it still sees him in this garage

(01:09:54):
and goes back down the hill intothe dark and you know, goes back
into the tree or the weeds backdown in there. So it's one of
those many, many experiences where yousay yourself, well, had it been
people messing around, how would theyhave They've got to have spectacular night vision,
they've got to have the ability tosee and superhuman abilities to be able

(01:10:15):
to see and do the things thatthese things did around there. And imagine
so like doing that even if somebodyis wearing his suit, for instance,
and they're walking around in a suittrying to fool people, how are they
going to get be able to seeso well and hear so well even within
the confines of a suit. Youknow, again, you had to be

(01:10:38):
there and experience this stuff to understandthe depth of the abilities of these things
and how often things like that happened. That just told you that you're not
dealing with with anything but something youknow, phenomenal out there, something that's
not like us at all. Imean, I thought it didn't walk with
a human like it walked like aSasquatch to me that I had wider hips,

(01:11:00):
and you know, Bob, thatthose things, they're the ones.
And I saw them six times inthe time that I was there, in
that five years, I saw themwith my own eyes six times. I
you know, we got some footagepieces mostly it was them. I got
a few small pieces myself, butthey actually see them moving and walking around.
My impression was when I saw themwith my with an unaided eye,

(01:11:25):
was I was looking at another personfor a brief second, because what I
saw, what the movement I sawlooked very human like in almost every aspect.
It wasn't hunched over or you know, moving around like a gorilla or
a monkey. These things move verygraceful and very human like and unhurried.
They weren't running, and they weren't, you know, acting any different than

(01:11:46):
a person would act in many ways. And when this one in that footage,
when it turned around and it waswalking back down the hill, you
could see the body shape of thatthing it and again the ones I seen
had that same body shape. Theywere not super white at that at the
shoulders, they had almost wider hips. So we referred to the ones around

(01:12:10):
there, which we saw I wantto say there was three of them that
we saw, mostly three of them. We referred to them as females because
they have a female that pear shapeof the body, that the hips being
whiter than the shoulders. And Isay three of them, I say there
was a very young one that youdescribed in the pancake footage, and then

(01:12:30):
there was a one that was aboutsix foot night and the other one which
is slightly taller than that. Andthey all had the same body shapes except
for that very young one had avery large elongated head with the body.
You know, it had an oddshape to the head. It was just
kind of like an egg turnam itsside, not straight up and down,

(01:12:53):
but on its side in elongated skullkind of underneath that hair. And I
think you can kind of see thatin that pancake, but it's just got
an odd toddler child toddler to lookto it. You know, which ones
did you personally see? The otherthree? I saw the I believe it
was the one around six foot tall. And the reason I say believe it

(01:13:15):
was that one is because it wasunderneath me. I was up on a
tree stand and it came out frombehind some shrubs and bushes in a tree
line that we were on, andit came around trying to skirt around this
tree stand that me and her husbandwere in, and I saw it from
head to toe. But I waslooking down at it at like a forty

(01:13:38):
five degree angle from about fifteen feetup, and I was looking at it.
It was dark, but there wasenough moonlight I could see the entire
body perfectly in the moonlight. Andit had that same shape. The hips
were really wide, and it lookedjust heavy set, you know, just
solid, big boned, but notsuper tall, just big boned, you

(01:13:58):
know. But yeah, that wasI mean, I could go on for
hours tell you about all the differentexperiences I had there, and there's some
pretty interesting stuff. I just don'thave the time. But you know,
in five years I spent I spentabout two weeks out of every month over
there. You know, I stillhad a family here in Colorado. I

(01:14:19):
had to be home, but Iwould go out there and spend about,
you know, ten days to fourteendays at a time, and be out
there almost every night when I could, and just trying to get stuff.
And I said, most of thetime we just didn't get anything. But
there was those times that made upfor all of that, all that dead

(01:14:40):
time. And you know, Bubbo, having known that you wanted to come
out there, or even you CliffGod, I would have been happy to
have you guys come out. Icould have got I could have we could
have brought you out and hosted you. I just didn't have any idea,
you know, really really didn't knowyou know that, you know, yeah,
I could have on that, butI didn't know that you guys,

(01:15:01):
you know, had the time orwanted to even do that. But well,
honestly, uh, I knew youat the time. I think we'd
become friends before you went out there, like maybe a year or two before
that. But when I heard thatyou got put on the project like that,
I I took a couple of stepsback to get because I respected you
and I wanted you to have allthe space I didn't. You know,

(01:15:21):
you didn't even need you didn't needme nosing around in your business. So
I just kind of like, letyou do what you need to do.
Figured well, I'm going to catchup with Dennis eventually, I'll figure,
you know, I'll hear some stuff. So yeah, well, you know,
here's the thing. What I liketo say, is if given enough
time, if if I could havehad you out there as a guest,
which I think Adrian would have beenfine with that. But had I had

(01:15:45):
enough time and you guys spent enoughtime there with with us there, you
definitely would have come away scratch inyour your head thinking, man, there's
just spend enough time there and you'dhave your own experiences that would, you
know, blow you away. Theyreally are, really with some fascinating stuff
that happened around there. And that'sone of the things I found about that

(01:16:06):
area is that a lot of peoplearound there have had experience and continue to
have experiences, but they just stayhush about it. My favorite part about
the whole thing is that it's whereof the late great hero of mine,
doctor John Binnenol got to see hisone on aise Sasquatch was at that place.
Yeah. John, great guy,as you guys know, and we

(01:16:30):
had him out for two weeks andgreat, great, great man he well,
as you all know. Everyone thatknew him knew and loved John.
He was just really good at heartand what a loss for all of us
when he passed. But in thetwo weeks he got the experience several things

(01:16:51):
including we had rocks thrown at usfrom the tree line, vocalizations he's heard,
and and then of course his ownsighting that we were at their house
and rainy day. Here's something that'sinteresting clip for Bobla. I want to
ask you guys this. I don'tthink we've ever talked about this, but

(01:17:12):
one of the things that I foundover time in that location was that,
you know, everyone tends to thinkof these these things as being primarily nocturnal,
right, They don't tend to betoo active during the day, at
least that that's what we believe.But the encounters around there occurred at all

(01:17:32):
times, mostly at night. Butyou know, I would never say that
that's the only time we'll ever haveexperiences. It could be first thing at
sunlight, be ten in the morning, two in the afternoon, or you
know, eleven o'clock at night,or whatever. It didn't matter. It
could happen at almost any time.But what I did find over over these

(01:17:57):
five years is that when we hadbad weather, when when it was snowy
or particularly rainy and cloudy, overcastand just generally yucky and you didn't want
to be outside, guess who seemedto be more active, and it was
it was a rainy really, justkind of a crappy day that that day
that John had his daylight signing,And I tend to believe that maybe they

(01:18:24):
know that we're just not as youknow, people are just not out in
that stuff. It's often it's alittle safer for them to be out.
But we tended to have more activityduring the day when it was like that,
overcast and cloudy. And in thatparticular day, we saw one from
the inside the house up at thetree line, and the woman had said

(01:18:45):
that she had heard him back inthere and she thought they were there,
so she went out with umbrella andshe's walking up and down this tree line,
you know, a couple hundred yardsfrom the house, and we're washing
her through window and she stops andyou can see her kind of looking in
a direction in the trees and talking. And eventually we saw this this brown,
brown patch of hair moving back inthe trees, and you can John

(01:19:10):
we gave John farribinoculars. He saidhe could see his shoulder and part of
an arm and it was standing therelooking towards her. So I think that
was his sighting, right, there. Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond
with Cliff and Bobo. Will beright back after these messages. Now.

(01:19:36):
To address the nocturnal versus diurnal thing, obviously they're not exclusively nocturnal, because
the Patterson Gimlin film for example.But do you feel through your experiences there
that they're more prone to come closerat night or do you think it doesn't
matter at all? I think thatat night. Yeah, I think that

(01:19:57):
we definitely got closer to them atnight than we did during the day.
At least, that they made theirselves known when we were you know,
at times and we were close tothem, and that came in the form
of some aggressiveness. Like you know, we would work those those those woods,
those tree lines quite a bit.And I mean when I say work
them, we would be walking fromjust about before dark. We'd go out

(01:20:21):
there and we'd have camp quarters andwe'd have I'd have my audio gear going.
I kept them in the shirt pocket. I had this a digital reporder,
you know, like a digital audiorecorder going for audio. And then
they kept we kept camp quarters andextra batteries and night vision, and we
stuffed them in pockets and we'd putthem on try to conceal and hide them.

(01:20:43):
But we carried them with us allthe time, right and well most
of the time. When we getclose to them after dark, I felt
like we could get pretty close becauseeven though we had the equipment, they
were still they had the advantage becausethey're back into the stick foliage, into
the trees and core. You know, even with night vision, if you're
looking into the trees, you stillhave shading, and it's it's like during

(01:21:05):
the day when the sun shine downinto the trees, even if you have
moonlight, the stuff cast shadows andyou can't they could be in their ten
feet and you still can't see themeven with night vision unless they're moving,
you know, And we could getwe could get close to them, and
we knew we were close because wewould hear them, and you know,
sometimes they would literally just you know, make odd noises or very subtle noises,

(01:21:30):
and you'd know it's not a youknow, three hundred pound squirrel back
in there in the middle of thenight, you know, chirping at you.
The other times we would literally hear, you know, sounds that were
I don't want to say like language, but you know, guttural guttural sounds.
We knew the sounds they made,and we knew it was them.

(01:21:53):
One particular night, clip I gotin, we were going to put food
out for him. And this wasa period of time when she felt like,
since I was there a lot,that I should make them more acclimated
to me being involved in putting foodout with her. And I would go
with her a few times, andthen I went out one evening. It

(01:22:15):
was pretty damn cold, it wasmiddle of winter, but it was a
clearer, starry night, and Iwent out with the husband and we walked
out way out to the back ofthe field and got to the edge of
it, and she had said thatshe had thought she had heard him back
in there earlier that day, soshe thought maybe that would be a good
place for us to go work.So we did, and I carried a

(01:22:36):
plate of food all the way backthere with her husband, and we get
towards the back of the field andlike I said, this is all,
you know, all thick woods andkind of spooky, and we're standing out
in the open field. And Ilooked at her husband and I said,
okay, well you want to takethe food in there? Or should I
take it in there. He goes, no, you do it. So

(01:22:58):
I picked up the late and I'mholding both my hands and I start walking
into the trees. And now thisarea of the trees had a lot of
ceedars. There's a lot of seedarsout there, you know, so it's
a deciduous forest, right, butthere's some evergreens in there mixed in in
that part of Kentucky. So thesecedars, when you know, even in
the winter, they're very thick,and it's pretty dark in there, and

(01:23:19):
that that was this part of thewoods was a part that had a lot
of cedar growth in it. SoI'm kind of walking into the trees here
and I'm getting into wards like adark quarter, and I literally cannot see
the plate in my hand. It'sthat black. I look straight up and
I could see the pinpoint of thestars through the tree canopy, but I
can't see in front of me.So I'm I'm walking and I'm literally using

(01:23:42):
my feet to fill in front ofme so I don't trip. And I
went in maybe twenty or thirty yardsinto the trees. I start I start
just doing what she does, youknow. I start trying to talk to
them, and I'm thinking, okay, I'm not sure they're there. I'm
just doing what she does, right. So I'm holding this plate of food
and I'm going, I got yourfood for you, and here it is,
you know, and I'm trying totalk in this kind of sing song
voice that she does, and andI'm I'm I say a few times,

(01:24:06):
I got your food for you,and then I stop and I'm listening,
and it's you could hear a pindrop. It is that absolute still night
there is. It's you know,maybe you know, twenty degrees outside,
it's cold, it's dry, it'snot a sound, and no animals,
nothing. And I said a couplemore times, and every time I say
it, I stop, and I'mlistening and I'm listening and I'm strained to

(01:24:28):
hear, and I don't hear anything. And I did this about four or
five times, and about the fifthtime, I said, I got your
food for you here, and suddenlyto my left and just a little bit
above me, and I swear itcould have been more than ten feet from
me. It's just this, justlike that, just a I'll tell you

(01:24:49):
what, guys, I wanted tocome out of my boots so quickly I
scared the you know what out ofit. Yeah, I was so I
didn't want to say it froze up. But her husband was back. He
heard it. He's back of thetree lines and he's going, dude,
dude, dude, put that down. And I'm just sitting there thinking,

(01:25:15):
oh, of course, that's why, Hugh. It just wanted me to
put it down and quit talking andget the hell out of there. It
just made no sense to me atthem, so I did every bone in
my body. Guys wanted me togo running out of those woods full speed
and just throw that plate right becauseit had been standing there that whole time,
in this pitch black and I neverknew it was there. I couldn't

(01:25:38):
smell it, I never heard it, didn't have any clue it was right
there, but you know it wasthere. And I set that plate down
as quickly and calmly as I couldand turned and walked straight out of there.
And I wanted to run out ofthere because it was that close to
me. But you know, God, how many times had we been in
there and when it was that younever even had had an idea you know

(01:26:01):
that, you know one was wasthat close to you, so you know
it makes me wonder how long thatthing was standing there just like looking at
you. It's thinking like, whatwhat what's up with this new guy?
Man? Like, what what's wrongwith this thing down right? Clip?
You know, I'm I'm like,I was a dude. I was blown

(01:26:23):
away at how I couldn't smell becausethat you know, you know, from
time to time we would smell him, and believe me, they had a
rank. I mean it was itwas bad, but there's other times that
we were real close to him likethat, or they were you know,
we knew they were into a sityand you could sell them. And it
was mostly in the winter it wasreally cold. I just figured because it
was so cold, they were notexuding a lot of difference sense, you

(01:26:45):
know, or anything. But atthat point I never smelled him. He
was that close. I never heardit or smelled it. And I'm not
gonna say him. It could havebeen a him or I don't know,
but it was right there and thatold time, and God, I just
thought, if it was light enough, I had the ability to see how
remarkable that would have been to beenthat close to it. You know,
yeah, didn't you guy? Itwasn't there a ten foot mail scene there,

(01:27:08):
like by the telephone the light poleone time, so I don't ten
foot, no, I think thatwe came to the conclusion it was around
seven and a half to eight footand the guy, her husband, actually
had a very frightening run into itone night out of the tree stand,
and we were able to get apretty good idea of its hype because it

(01:27:31):
had moved a limb when he wasup in the tree stand. It was
nearly to his knees while he wasup on a tree stand, and he
had moved this limb, and hetold me where its head was, and
the next day we were able togo out there and measure that to get
a pretty close idea of you know, figured that was between seven and a
half day foot tall. But whatthe guy kept impressing upon me bobos like

(01:27:51):
we've all heard. He said,dude, it wasn't that it was just
because it was that freaking tall,Because it was tall, but he says,
it was the size of the thing. It was enormous. He was
shooken up about that for days becausehe had seen the other ones, the
females, I want to say,the females, the smaller ones. He
had seen the other ones for theprior few years, and he had never

(01:28:14):
really seen the male, the bigmale. The male wasn't around that often
from what we understood. From whatwe could surmise from the situation was this
was a family group. But thefemales and the young one seemed to be
around there most often, and themale would come and go. You'd only
see him every you know, maybeevery couple of months. He might come
around for a very short period oftime and he was gone again. And

(01:28:38):
do you know knocks when the malewas around. Did you notice any different
vocalizations or do is you get anypatterns at all, like as far as
vocals or knocks you know? Infact, there I found that unusual.
I think that because of the proximityof all the homes and being that it
was a rural setting and that literallyhomes were on all these you know,

(01:28:58):
hollow ridges and down these roads,and that they these houses literally dropped back
into these hollows. I think thatin terms of vocalizations, I don't think
they vocalized loudly or very much,or there was a few occasions we heard
wood knox or wood knock types ofsounds, but rarely and we did associate

(01:29:18):
that with them. But when itcame to vocalizations, these weren't very vocal.
They weren't very vocal there. Theyjust did not make a lot of
screams or noises. Now having saidthat, I did get a fantastic series
of screams from one of them oneevening on their property. I recorded this
on a new digital SD card mediaand when I went to review it,

(01:29:41):
I thought, oh, this isthe most awesome. It was literally that
woman screaming crazy, streaky, youknow, crazy, you know, aha,
you know that kind of stuff.And when I went to Dreddit pulled
it off recorder later that night,it was corrupted and I lost it all.
But but yeah, it was soI'll tell you what. I was

(01:30:04):
just one of the many things thatjust make you just go, damn it,
I just want to give up.But often no, we hardly ever
heard them, and we didn't getmuch in terms of wood knocks around there.
But the big mail we knew itwas around from time to time because
either she said she would get aglimpse of it or see it. The

(01:30:25):
husband had his run in with withit one night and it scared him so
bad he didn't want to go backinto the woods for a long time,
because again he tried to tell mehe impressed upon me. I never saw,
but he said the size of thisthing was what scared him so bad.
He said, that thing's walking aroundthe woods out there, and it's
it's just it's just not right.It's what he said, it's just not

(01:30:45):
right. He illumined that face witha headlamp that he was wearing that night
when he was sitting in the treestand trying to get footage, and the
thing came up to the tree standand pulled the branch down, and he
heard it move the branch, andwe looked over. He saw this thing
looking right at him, and hesaid that the head there was a human
face, high cheekbones like a likea Native American kind of but it had

(01:31:09):
almost like a semi beard, soit had a male figure like, you
know, feature like a beard,but not full beard like a man,
but you know, the sides andthe mustache kind of thing. And then
it had had a clear forehead,no hair in the forehead, but then
it had hair, you know,like a like a human in many ways,
shaggy long hair. He said,this thing had teeth and when he

(01:31:33):
hit it with the with the headlampof his uh, you know, his
life with a headlamp. He saidthat this thing kind of brought one of
its hands up to kind of shieldits eyes and it and it bared its
teeth, and he said that ithad very prominent canines. Kind of like
that facial footage, you can seea little bit of a canine in there,

(01:31:55):
but he said that the canines werevery prominent. So that's still out
to him. But he said,he said, Dennis, he gets saying,
Dennis, it's the size of thething. He said, it was
the size of a five gallon bucket. It was a head that was four
or five times the size of anyhuman he's ever seen. It was just
enormous. And he said the shouldersjust they look to be like four foot

(01:32:17):
wide, you know, just incrediblymassive. And it scared him the desk
because he said that up to thatpoint he had been kind of dealing with
the others and they were more linedor proportion to a large person, but
this thing was well beyond that.Okay, So Dennis, like you had
a lot, you had excitings.You said you were around these things pretty

(01:32:40):
often. I'd say you know,more than a ravage bear, or maybe
not more than a bear, butyou know what I mean, what sort
of behaviors like, like, whatsort of interesting behaviors besides oh they can
see in the dark perfectly or they'rereally quiet. What sort of things did
you observe them doing or have done? What can you tell us what you
saw there and what you learned fromthat? Well, that's a tough that's

(01:33:03):
good question. I think that onething I learned is that you have to
be very persistent and predictable if youwant. For me, the only way
to really approach this research anymore isit would be great to find out a
situation like theirs, where you havepeople that are kind of accustomed to and

(01:33:24):
if you're in that situation, andI'm sure there's people that's probably been doing
this much longer than me, andprobably far more matters or more advanced,
probably working maybe working with even agroup that's more you know, used to
being around people. But to me, that's really the ideal situation in order
for us to understand these things isto be it is to be in a

(01:33:46):
situation like that where you can havesome semblance of predictability about these things.
In other words, you can say, hey, we know that they're going
to be around here every so manydays or every few weeks. We don't
know exactly with time, but ifthey're going to be around here, how
can I be prepared to maybe havean interaction with them? And I think
that's a big part of that isjust be a very predictable human being,

(01:34:11):
be very non threatening, be prettyopen, and don't show fear and be
afraid. I mean, that wassomething that was very difficult for me to
do. But I kept a gofor face all the time and I did
not, you know, show fearand try to act like I was afraid
of these things. I tried toapproach, you know, areas they were

(01:34:31):
in and sit down quietly and bepatient and just wait. And that was
a big thing for me. Ithink I had a lot of interactions because
I would just sit quietly and waitfor them to come to me or to
you know. You know you guys, I'm sure you've experienced this. You
sit in the spot, you havea feeling they're around, until you see

(01:34:54):
patiently and eventually you'll hear them comecloser or or they will do things that
in other words, they kind ofkee you in that they're they're around there.
They'll make noises deliberately so you knowthat you know they're they're kind of
telling you that they're there. Soif you can reach those kind of milestones,
I think that that's a pretty good, pretty good place to be in

(01:35:17):
this research because you're kind of gettinga certain level of trust. Maybe that's
what I'm looking for. But thebig thing is just be predictable and be
it somebody that you you can demonstratethat you're not someone to be feared or
be afraid of, you know,by them, because you're very predictable.
You're not going to do anything thatwill frighten them, you know, to

(01:35:41):
be threatening to them. You know, a number of years ago I came
to you for some advice. Idon't know if you remember or not,
but I had a spot up inMounta Hood here that they were they seem
to be at rather you know,rather often. What you said to me,
and you said it so concisely.It's like you need to become a
predictable feature in their environment exactly.And that's the way I try to approach

(01:36:04):
any new areas as well. Youknow, I'm sorry, Cliff, what
was the other question, Oh,I want to know about any unusual behaviors
that you might have observed out therethat maybe aren't widely known. I think
I remember one time I was talkingto you years ago and you mentioned something
about you finding areas where they hadcleared the forest debris away from the forest
floor. Am I remembering that correctly? Or yeah, yes, exactly.

(01:36:28):
Actually documented at several times places thatshe had seen them sleeping. Like I
mentioned earlier, the footage where you'rekind of in a semi fetal or fetal
position. We've gone back later andfound that that area that they were bedded
down in was cleared of debris.Okay, all the leaves and the glitter

(01:36:51):
and the and the grass, it'scleared away. So there's they're directly on
the soil, which I found odd, and even in the snow. I
came across beds several times. Infact, one of them very early on
the project, within the first twomonths of the project. Cliff I was
at the location and came across tracksthat were in the cedars. This was

(01:37:16):
in December of that first year,and these tracked them through the cedars,
and then there was a bedding areathat was underneath one of the theaters,
you know, one of the areasthat didn't have as much snow, and
it had cleared all the snow outand was betted down and all the duff,
all the litter and the needles inthe in the leaves and was bedded

(01:37:36):
straight on the soil. And Ifound that was interesting. I discovered that
several times during that project. Andanother interesting thing, Cliff, I'm sure
you've heard of this. You rememberKathy Mosquith I believe, was the one
that actually brought to light somebody hadfound what they call it cedar ball.
So, oh, yeah, I'veseen pictures of that, right, Yeah.

(01:37:59):
We discovered something very similar to thatalong one of the game trails out
there somewhere in the middle of theproject, and it was basically there was
a lot of cedar trees with thatvery fine bark you can literally peel it
right, and that bark would comeoff in strips, and we found a
degraded it looked to me like somethingvery similar to Kaffy had, but it

(01:38:23):
was like a ball and it wasstuffed with leaves basically, with a lot
of like oak and what I forgetthe other type of tree around there,
but dessiduous trees leaves were inside ofthis crudely woven it was about the size
of a cantilope. I want tosay, to this day, I can't
tell you what, where, orwhy or how. I don't even know

(01:38:45):
if it was a big foot thatmade it, but it was. It
was very reminiscent of that when Isaw that. So another odd thing there
that you know, I have tosay, really struck out on my memory.
This conversation could literally go on,I think, for another three hours,
and we haven't spoken anything and won'tbecause we don't have time. But

(01:39:05):
we haven't. We haven't even spokenabout your your big footing adventures elsewhere.
I honesty clip after after the wholefiasco with Melba in the Ericson project.
Adrian is a good man. Youknow. I worked with that man for
five years. He had true,pure intentions on trying to do this because

(01:39:29):
you know, he was trying toanswer his own questions, and you know,
he had experiences growing up in Canada, he had run in several times
with these creatures, and he's oneof these people like many of us,
who had to know you know,he was determined to come about you know
answers to this mystery, and hecouldn't do it. He couldn't come down

(01:39:50):
himself and do it, and hehad to have us doing it because he
had to run that business. Sohe was pretty well tied to that.
But his intentions were right. Hewas he he was, you know,
he did all he could. Somepeople have kind of drug him through the
mud a little bit, but Adrian, really his intentions was pure. He
wanted to help solve this mystery withthis project, and the way things turned

(01:40:14):
out in the end, with thecouple we were working with, and poor
Leela the things that she had togo through, and and other people that
we dealt with their good and bad, mostly difficulties. I just have got
a resentment for the entire not people, because I know a lot of great
people in big putting, but Ijust jaded about the whole thing. Yeah

(01:40:38):
here you yah, I have ablood sample I have. We've worked very
hard on this project. We thought, hey, we didn't never once didn't
think that we were going to bethe ones to break the soap, And
we're just trying to help move theball down the line a little bit more,
to help connect some dots. Soother people can kind of put into
right. But along the way thedifficulties that we had to over and not

(01:41:00):
overcome. But I mean we hada lot of difficulty we couldn't overcome.
We just the problems that were constantlycoming up. You know, no matter
what we do as investigators and researcherswere not gonna really affect anything until the
time is right. But I honestlyjust didn't feel like the time is right.
Then. Too many things you know, came up that just you know,

(01:41:24):
snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, and I became jaded about the
whole thing, and I just thought, well, if we can't do it
now with what we have other thanhaving a body, a living specimen or
a body, there's really no wayto do this and move that forward.
And you know, our whole intentionswith the Erickson project was was really the
hopefully set up a location that wecould bring people in, people like you

(01:41:47):
and Bobo and John and Jeff Meldrumand biologists and anthropologists and people who could
you know, have some bit ofinteret action with these things. Because we
saw potential in that location, andhey, if there's any place that we
have a good chance of people gettingto see these things and maybe witness a

(01:42:09):
little bit of their behavior and verifythat these things actually exist and maybe get
some biological evidence out of them.This might be the spot. But you
know, everything just went to rightwith that whole project. Everything that could
go wrong went wrong, and everyeverybody and all their problems and things that
you know, humans created more problemsthan we ever needed to have on that

(01:42:30):
project, which really is what kindof destroyed the whole thing. It was
just just human habits, human badI don't want to get into the details,
but I'm just saying it was peoplescrewed it up. It wasn't really
the creatures. Then one final question, do you think that the body of
evidence, like the footage, thereports, the footprints, all that stuff,

(01:42:54):
do you think it'll ever be madepublic for everyone to you know,
to check out for the You know, it's up to Adrian, really,
I am. I've been under anNDA for a long time and he's given
me a lot of liberty to talkabout it. But I think it's really
up to him. He kind ofhe's like me. He just threw his
hands up in the end after thewhole problem with the DNA and melbook and

(01:43:17):
the paper and everything else, andhe kind of just gave up on it
all. And well, that's thething, you know, That's what I
think. That's a lot of thereason that Bobo and I were frankly kind
of, you know, harassing youfor a while to get on the show,
because at the end of the day, Bobo and I both know you.
We both know Leela, I don'tI don't know Adriene, I don't
know the people of the property owners. I don't know anybody else except for

(01:43:40):
you two, and you know,Moneymaker and a few other people, but
you guys were the main folks there. You know, you and Laila,
and I know both of you.I'd like both you, and I trust
both of you. You know youYou've shown your quality, so if you
say it, I believe that's thetruth that as you see it. And
that's why I think it's so importantthat you came on the show today and

(01:44:00):
uh and told us your version ofit to the best of your you know,
the best your ability from your perspective, this is the truth. Because
I know you well enough that I'mnot going to question anything you tell me
because I trust you. You're You'rea man of integrity and honesty and a
good observer. No one, noone, uh no, no reason to
lie. I mean, there justdoesn't make any sense, you know.

(01:44:24):
So having you coming on today andsetting the record as straight as it can
be from one man's perspective, Ithink is an important thing that you've done.
So thank you very much. Yeah, thank you guys. I appreciate
you giving me a chance to tella little bit more about, you know,
my side. Like I said,ever reluctant to do it anymore.
I just and I'm trying to,you know, I'm occupied with other things

(01:44:44):
in life. But I definitely appreciatethe chance to uh, you know,
talk with you guys about it becausewe never really have talked in depth about
it. It was really good hearingfrom you again, man, I mean
it's been too long. Thanks alot again for coming on and all right,
they bull will take care of Thankyou so much. Yeah, good
talking to you both, you guys, and appreciate it. I guess I'll

(01:45:05):
let you go to bed, it'sgetting pretty late. And everyone else,
thanks for tuning in. We reallyappreciate it. Spread the word. If
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(01:45:28):
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