Ep. 277 - Bigfoot Forensics with David Zigan!

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Big Food and Beyond.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
With Cliff and Bobo.

Speaker 1 (00:08):
These guys are you fav It's so like say subscribe
and raid it five starck s and me righteous on
yesterday and listening Watchie Lim always keep its watching.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
And now your hosts Cliff Barrickman and James Bubo Fay,
Hey Bobs, how you doing man? Good good?

Speaker 3 (00:33):
Gotta good night's sleep last night, or I should say
a good day's sleep todays. Decided to go to bit
to about Ultra five this morning.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
But in the trailer, in the trailer, that's right, my friends,
all our listeners out there, Bobo is here in my home,
sitting not two feet from me, right now, next to me,
huddled around this microphone doing the podcast. Bobo said he
would be here at four o'clock today because we had
a podcast scheduled for five pm, and again overdoing it,

(01:01):
just going the extra mile. He shows up at four
am at the house, so he wasn't an hour early
for the podcast. He was thirteen hours early for the podcast,
which I think more than makes up for every other
time you were late to this podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
I'm on the plus side. I can show up an
hour late for like a couple of weeks.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah, exactly, So like every time you're a half hour late,
we just put that thirty minutes into a bucket or something,
and then he shows up thirteen hours early for the
next podcast, and that takes away all his debt. So
I think we're even now, Or do I owe you
or do you get to be late a few times now?

Speaker 3 (01:34):
Well? You only it's because we let those guys sleep
in the trailer. Someone stayed one of the cushions on
the cop set, so I got to replace all the cushions.
It's match, so it's going to cost you a pretty
penny for that.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
You'll be very surprised that. I really don't think anyone
has ever slept in there since you have last time,
So those stains are yours my friend Gerhart there, I
don't think, so I don't know whil it's ever been
to the house. I don't think Ken stayed here, but
I don't. I don't think Lyle has I don't remember
Ken being in there, but he was alone, so I
don't know. Anyways, Yeah, that's another anyway. Ye, Bobo's right

(02:09):
here next to me. Rumor is the when Bobo leaves
after a few days or weeks or whenever that happens.
His trailer may not be here as well. So we
will see about that. Because like I don't know Bobo.
I talk to a lot of people about the podcast.
You know, they come in the shop, they talk to me.
They always ask, so, is Bobo's trailer still in your barn?
They literally always ask that. So I think that the

(02:31):
trailers like we should make like maybe big gonna be
on shirts with the trailer in it or something.

Speaker 3 (02:35):
It's a sweet trailer.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
It is a sweet trailer. It is a sweet trailer, absolutely,
So the end of an era, possibly, we'll see. I'll
believe that. I'll believe it when I see it. Honestly,
I'll believe it when I don't see it in the
bar in the barn.

Speaker 3 (02:51):
Yeah close, putting in a pretty sweet Uh have a
full casting room now, I guess like you're building back
in there.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
That's right, that's right. We're gonna frame up the inside
of the outbuilding to some degree, have a place for
the cast to go. I have like a little laboratory.
I would say laboratory, but laboratory sounds so much cooler.
So the we're gonna go with that. So, yeah, we
will see man, we will see. But anyway, so it's
a pleasure to have Bobo in the house, as it
always is, and it's also a pleasure to have today's

(03:19):
guest with us.

Speaker 3 (03:20):
I've bet waiting for this one.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah, it's a little something for everybody to learn a
little bit from, so hopefully learn a lot. Yeah, and
of course, since you're sitting right next to me, Bobo,
I think there's gonna be a fun Patreon. It's gonna
be a fun member episode that we're going to record
right after this as well. We have a lot to
talk about. I've been in the field a lot. There's
been a lot of empty days with nothing going on,
but a few really fantastic days and hopefully I can
take you up the hill and show you those sort

(03:43):
of things the next couple of days. Here, listeners, if
you're not a member and you want to be, well, actually,
if you're listening, you probably do want to be a member.
But what you want to do is you go to
the show that the link in the show notes below here.
Pratt Froyes puts our links next to the episode here.
But what you get if you be I'm a member
of Bigfoot and beyond is. You get this episode right

(04:04):
now with zero commercial breaks, because nobody likes commercials. No
one likes being sold stuff. But you also get an
extra hour of content every single week of Bobo and
I and usually Matt Preuit's right there with us too,
because it's kind of a fun conversation with another voice
added there. So if you are interested, yeah, very well
educated voice. Matt, You're a very very well educated person.

(04:24):
So congratulations on that. We appreciate your help, not only
in editing the stupid things Bobo and I say out,
but also the additions. I bet, I bet Matt edits
a lot less of himself. He does us at all. No,
you wouldn't have to. He says it perfect the first time.
All right, Well, anyway, you get the gess Man, If
you want to hear more from Matt Pruit and Me

(04:45):
and Bobo here, you can be a member. You can
extra hour of content pretty much every single week. Sometimes
it's forty five minutes, but it's usually at least an hour,
sometimes an hour and a half. We kind of we
give you everything we can. You also get an occasional
video or cool pictures and all that other stuff that
you can find on the Patreon of our members. So
I don't know. It's five bucks a month. It seems

(05:05):
pretty cheap to me. I mean, that's a beer without
a tip when you think about it. And if you
pay five bucks a month you get four hours of
content plus often pictures and occasional video and no commercials.
Seems worth it to me. I mean, and mind you,
I don't listen to any podcasts, so I'm not actually
a member. But Bobo who does listen to a lot
of podcasts. Bobo's actually a member of his own po podcast.

(05:27):
Just so you can listen to the final product without
a commercial, right.

Speaker 3 (05:30):
I still listen to the commercials too.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Do you listen to the commercials too?

Speaker 3 (05:33):
Why to see what they think of me?

Speaker 2 (05:35):
The commercials. Yeah, commercials don't think anything of you.

Speaker 3 (05:38):
Oh that's algorithm?

Speaker 4 (05:40):
What you say?

Speaker 2 (05:40):
Oh that kind of thing? What kind of commercials do
you get?

Speaker 3 (05:44):
Weird ones? I bet you told me about that. I
was like, yeah, these advertisers are think are really strange
to listen to this podcast. I was like, no, it's
just you.

Speaker 4 (05:55):
I'm like.

Speaker 2 (05:58):
That's great.

Speaker 3 (05:59):
A lot of counseling ones.

Speaker 2 (06:00):
Yeah, fantastic. Well, anyway, yeah, if you want to hear
more of this, become a member click that link in
the show notes below, or you can go to Bigfoot
and Beyond podcasts dot com and then hit that membership button.
That'll tell you more than you need to know. All right,
I'm pretty excited about the guests today. I met the guest.

(06:21):
I don't know how I got to ask him. I
don't even know how long. I've known him for, maybe
six months or more, maybe a year. I have no idea,
but I think that we all have a lot to
learn from this gentleman. So, without much else to say,
which is rare for me, why don't we bring our
guests on. This is David Zigan. He is a cop,
he is an expert in ballistics. He's an expert in
dramatic glyphics, which is directly related to our field. And

(06:41):
he also has kind of a fledgling YouTube channel doing
his best to teach the bigfoot community about ways to
gather evidence and just how to do things right frankly,
and it's called Bigfoot Forensics on YouTube. So David, thank
you very much for coming on Bigfoot and Beyond with
these nerds here whoa sorry bobs.

Speaker 4 (06:59):
A lot of don't listen in well, I really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
So, David, first of all, how long have I known you? What? What
six months?

Speaker 4 (07:08):
A year?

Speaker 3 (07:08):
Is that?

Speaker 2 (07:08):
Is that more or less correct?

Speaker 4 (07:10):
I think it's somewhere around six months. I think you're
right about that.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
Time is very elastic in my old age.

Speaker 4 (07:15):
You know, I'm feeling that I'm old too.

Speaker 2 (07:18):
Now from my side of the fence, David reached out
to me at the very beginning, because I think more
or less I'm paraphrasing. This isn't a direct quote, but
you said, I'm not so sure soundsquatches are real, but
I think they might be, and I'm hoping that you'll
give me something that convinces me. Was that basically the
intent when you first reached out to me.

Speaker 4 (07:38):
I think that was really close. What initially transpired was
I was looking for dermatoglyphics and looking for dermal ridges,
anything that I could find that had to do with Bigfoot,
and I had been reaching out to a lot of
people trying to get that information and nobody was really responding.
But you responded, and you initially asked me what I

(08:00):
was planning on doing with it, and what were my
plans for it? And Basically what happened was you were
nice enough to respond, and what I was hoping to
do was start doing some real research on the subject.
And I was hoping that along the way something would
come across my desk that I couldn't disprove, you know,

(08:23):
something that because I can't be out in the field
like you guys, but I am in the lab a lot,
and if I can have something come across my desk
that makes me just go wow, I can't explain this.
That's what I would ultimately love to have, but it's
kind of transformed into something else since then.

Speaker 2 (08:38):
No, Now I got to ask, you're a lab kind
of character. You said just said that you're not out
in the field very much. I know you have been,
and we'll get to that in a little while. But
what sort of items, what sort of evidence, and what
sort of things in general do you do? You look
at that because your testimony puts people in jail, So

(08:58):
what sort of things do you specialize in and what
did you think you can bring to the bigfoot field.

Speaker 4 (09:05):
So originally I start off as a police I started
off as a police officer, just like everyone else. I
spent a long time on the street on the road,
I primarily worked night shifts. I ended up moving into
being a detective, where I ended up being a polygraph
examiner for a number of years, but that was just
kind of like alongside my regular detective duties. Then I

(09:27):
came to my current agency that I'm at now, and
I moved into what they call it, it's crimes against persons,
but it sounds less than what it is. It's major crimes.
It's armed robberies, homicides, things like that. And after a
while I got kind of burnt out on that a
little bit, and I was able to move into a

(09:49):
position within the CSI unit, and I found my home immediately.
I couldn't believe that they would pay me to study
to do these kinds of things, and now that's all
I do, even in my spare time, so much so
that now I'm creating a channel trying to help teach
about it. But during the initial phases, I got to
go to the National Forensic Academy sometimes called the Body

(10:11):
Farm in Oakridge, Tennessee.

Speaker 2 (10:13):
Oh yeah, yeah, there's some really wonderful videos out of there,
I might say.

Speaker 4 (10:17):
Yeah, So I got to a ten there and a
little later on, right before COVID. I got to be
an adjunct instructor where I got to go up and
help teach about fingerprints and fingerprint processing, and I basically
have just really embraced the fingerprint and the dermal ridge realm,
and I've become an expert witness in my field. I

(10:40):
help teach fingerprints, I actually verify fingerprints for a lot
of the surrounding agencies and basically mentor some of them.
So I am a certified latent fingerprint examiner, certified crime
scene tech along with being trained in shooting, incident reconstruction,
and blood state and pattern analysis. I was hoping that

(11:02):
after looking at different pieces of evidence online that I
could help kind of bring some proper ways to collect that.
I mean, it all started when I was looking at
Bigfoot impressions and I was looking for those dermal ridges,
looking for the inside of those prints, but I kept

(11:22):
finding out that they were either taken improperly, too far away,
no scale. And I started thinking, what if I'm looking
at a true life Bigfoot footprint right now? But I
have to just swipe away and keep looking because there's
nothing I can do about that. And then you know
the next step was, well, maybe I could help teach

(11:43):
this and shed some light on how to document this
properly in case somedays somebody actually does do it.

Speaker 2 (11:49):
Yeah, because you teach cops on a regular basis how
to do their jobs right in your areas of expertise,
why not the Bigfoot community because it is sorely needed.
I don't know everything, but not even close, and I'm
always looking for some guidance how to do things properly
because we're just kind of in the darken a lot
of ways. You know. We can look online at various
websites or buy various books, but there's nothing like having

(12:11):
a teacher or a mentor right there.

Speaker 4 (12:13):
And you've been kind of that to me since I
started this. I know, I've tried to get in touch
with you a couple of times about some frustrations I've had.
You've fought me down. Things move at a different pace
in different worlds, and people have different ideas, and I've
been appreciative, of course.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
Oh yeah, I'm happy to help, of course. And then
I don't know how many times you tried to contact
me before I got back, because I'm always hesitant to
give too much too soon, because there's a lot of
people out in the big Foot community that use whatever
they can get for their own agendas and that sort
of thing. So I'm very pleased that I took a
chance on you, though, because I think the first one
of the first things I did was I gave you

(12:52):
photographs of one of the casts. I don't remember which
one it was, maybe as a handprint from Missouri, maybe
it was something else. Oh no, no, it was the
It was the Corn Creek cast from the Tom Shay
collection Corn Creek.

Speaker 4 (13:04):
And you did send me the palm I mean or
the hand.

Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and now and both of those cases
there are some concerns whether those were introduced dramaticallypics or
they were there on the foot or the hand in
each case. But can you speak to the difference between
from your from the from your side, you know, from
from analyzing photographs and then analyzing the cast itself. Tell

(13:31):
us about the differences between those two when you're presented
with evidence, our photographs enough or do you need the cast?
You know where I'm going with this.

Speaker 4 (13:39):
Yes, So I remember very clearly, especially on the hand one,
because you ended up making a cast for that or
a reproduction and sending it to me because I initially
worked off the photographs and you kept telling me, I
think there's something that you're not seeing, and you were.
You were absolutely right, and I wasn't aware that I

(14:02):
wasn't seeing it properly. And part of it was because
in my world when we do crime scene reconstructions, or
my partner at my agency, we BO, we worked with
some prosecutors in our county where we helped look at
some crime scenes to see if they were documented correctly,
so to say, and we will basically do reconstructions from

(14:25):
the photographs and the crime scene reports. So it wasn't
anything new to be working from the photographs. But what
I didn't take into account was being able to hold
it and manipulate it in my hands. You know. I'm
used to working with photographs that are showing rooms where
we can see things differently, but being able to hold

(14:46):
that cast change my whole perspective once I got it.

Speaker 3 (14:49):
Yeah, I guess it jumps from two D to three
D when you can hold it, so that's a lot
more info.

Speaker 4 (14:54):
Yeah, And I think if you know, especially with the
three D technology that's going on now, that would be
beneficial in sending things just to you know, like working
from photographs would be great, and then the three D
model so you could spin it around and kind of
just kind of see what you were originally talking about,
would be fantastic as well. That might cut back on

(15:15):
the reproductions of casts and postage.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bogo.
We'll be right back after these messages. So right now,
since we have you know, a number of years listening
to us, and I'd say probably the majority of them
are considered themselves bigfooters or researchers in some sort of way,

(15:40):
what are some of the things that we can look
to do as far as dramatic glyphics go on casts?
Are there any things that, like, say, for example, there's
a footprint in the ground in the mud, and it's
a fine mud, maybe some silts, and there's a chance
that we can maybe record some dramatic glyphics. What would
you recommend we do, as feel researchers looking at a

(16:01):
beautiful cast in the ground to preserve those dramaticglyphics in
any way possible. And I'm thinking, like I'm looking at
the cast, I haven't even thought about casting it yet.
What are the steps that we should do to make
sure we don't lose any information out of that footprint
if it has a possibility of dramaticlypics.

Speaker 4 (16:20):
Okay, so I recently I posted a different Someone recently
told me that it was kind of funny. They asked
me if I had ever photographed something in the ground
that was hard to see, and of answers, of course,
is yes. So I see a lot of people trying
to do the right thing and they're taking you know,

(16:42):
putting the camera parallel to the ground. You know, that's
one of the first steps is we don't need any
side shots with the camera, but we definitely need the scale,
and we need the pictures of the footprint, and those
those first close up photographs the footprint they need to
fill up the entire frame of the photograph. And you know,

(17:06):
people are telling me, you know, well, we don't have
a DSLR camera like you do things like that. But
I'm here to tell you. We were kind of playing
around the other day and we decided to do a
whole scene using just our phones, and it came out wonderfully.
It was absolutely wonderful. So phones nowadays are fantastic, especially
with that three D stuff that you light scan averse

(17:27):
that we've been using as well. But that first picture
looking over the top, that's very important. But I think
what people are forgetting is the lighting. If you can
carry some type of flashlight or something like that. What
we do is if the sun is too much in
the way, we'll actually put a umbrella to create some shade,

(17:51):
and we'll either use the flash from the camera detached
from the camera itself to create side lighting to make
the shadows than those ridges, or we'll use flashlights. My
favorite is some of these mechanic work lights that you
can unfold and it has like a long line of
LEDs and we just set it down on the side

(18:13):
of the footprint and it shoots lights straight across it.
Anything that's sticking up from the ground. It creates a shadow.
And then we do that in multiple shots moving around
the print, because if you create a shadow, you could
accidentally cast a shadow over something important, so we do
it in multiple shots.

Speaker 2 (18:31):
So move the light from photograph to photograph.

Speaker 4 (18:34):
In the same photograph, like when we have the camera
over that one impression, we'll move the light from the
side to the front, to the other side to the back,
so we're getting different angles of those shadows.

Speaker 2 (18:49):
Right, then take a picture for each position of the light.

Speaker 4 (18:52):
For each position, each position, And you have to do
that because if you do it and you get too
long of a shadow, it could cover something up and
you don't want that. So and I think the other
thing is on the ones that you suspect that may
have dermal ridges, we'll take it a step further and
we'll actually grid that footprint off into sections, and we'll

(19:17):
make sure the scale is in each photograph, but we'll
actually zoom in and get even closer to the point
where you may not even be able to tell it's
a footprint. But I just have like the upper corner
of the footprint, and we'll do that all the way around,
you know, because a further way the camera is. You know,
people want to zoom and look at the details, but
if you zoom in and you're too far away, all

(19:37):
that does is pixel it. So we have to just
keep getting closer and closer and closer. And we've even
done fingerprints with our phones. So I tried to tell
an examiner the other day and they were like, my
camera's not working, and they're very upset, and I was
like here, here's your phone, let me show you. And
we did the whole thing with the side lighting and
it was amazing.

Speaker 2 (19:56):
What would be the next step I want to take
this from I'm looking at a print in the ground
to I have it in somebody's hand. What would be
the next step?

Speaker 4 (20:04):
After we've photographed it thoroughly, if it lends itself to
you know, it has a lot of details in it,
We're now going to start trying to use some of
our three D scanning technology. And honestly, that's also going
to depend on the severity of the case. Right we
don't have the time to do it for everything, but
if we can, we're playing with it right now, trying

(20:26):
to incorporate it. But the next step is casting, just
like everybody else. And I'm not saying photographs take the
place of casting. Basically they go hand in hand. Some
of the photographs will get stuff the cast doesn't. Sometimes
the cast get stuff the photographs doesn't don't, and you
have to use both. But once you have the cast. Honestly,

(20:49):
once we have the cast in our hands, we're going
to send it to a footwear examiner. We're not actually
going to clean it. We're gonna send it dirt and
all to the examiner. And the reasoning behind that is,
you know those casts, they pick up twigs and grass
and stones, and as they pick apart and takes those

(21:09):
things off, they document where these twigs and stones were.
That way, when they get to it, they can say, Okay,
that weird impression inside the inside the cast isn't from
the thing that made the impression, but it was from
an artifact.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
Right. Well, so you basically compare the cast to the
photographs itself, and I suppose in some ways there needs
to be not that it would be probably any doubt,
but a correlation like oh yeah, I see that rock
in the picture. I see that rock in the cast.
And then on top of that kind of separating what's
actually an artifact from the foot and what's just noise
from the ground, right.

Speaker 4 (21:45):
Yes, I mean you have to be able to show
that that cast came from that impression. And that's another
reason why those photographs are so important. It kind of
shows chain of custody of where that cast came from.
And I think that was an issue with something I've
seen before where I was sent to a blurry photograph
saying this cast came from here, but that was the

(22:06):
only photograph, and that makes it kind of difficult to say, hey, yes,
this cast actually came from there, right right, I'm just
going to add one more thing about photographing the casts.
I think it only should be oblique lighting. I don't
know where this thing started about putting fingerprint powder and
trying to lift the fingerprints or dermal ridges off the

(22:27):
cast with tape. You don't really want to destroy the
evidence anymore unless you're going to be able to like
thoroughly clean it. I don't know. We've never really like
did stuff like that where we never would. I think
if we were going to do something like that, we
would use something like Acutrans, which is like a microsill.
I don't know if you're familiar with that.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
No, I've never heard of that.

Speaker 4 (22:47):
All right, So Acutrans is a forensic company. It's basically
nothing more than the dental bite registration material that the
dentists use. It basically has two things, kind of like
two little two's. You squirt it and mixes together. It
comes out and makes like a rubbery mold kind of thing.
We use it for tool impressions things like that.

Speaker 2 (23:10):
Yeah, yeah, you know, I mean, I know, I'm probably
exposing myself as the elementary school teacher at heart. But
you're talking about basically Plato, like a fancy Plato. Right.

Speaker 4 (23:19):
Yeah, it hardens, It hardens like a plastic But yeah,
but you won't be able to really manipulate it once
it's dried. You can, you can bend it, but it's
not going to deform anymore. So you could do that
to put it over top and then mess with it,
but we wouldn't keep messing with the cast for worry

(23:40):
of hurting it anymore. The original piece or the last
piece of evidence that you have.

Speaker 2 (23:45):
Okay, very good, Now you know the sas Quest dramatoglyphic
thing is basically all that came to light with the
Paul Freeman stuff from the nineteen eighty two cast from
the Elk Wallow. And the first and the first person
to look at it, and certainly the strongest advocate of
these particular or ridges and whatnot was doctor Grover Krantz.
Have you had a chance to read doctor Grover Krantz's

(24:05):
book yet and his comments on the dramaticglyphics?

Speaker 4 (24:09):
No, I do have his book, it's right behind me.
But I have not read it.

Speaker 3 (24:14):
You know.

Speaker 4 (24:14):
The short time that I've been in it is basically
since I contacted you. And I've been lucky and I've
made a lot of contacts, but I also have a
lot of books, and it's getting hard to keep up.
I'm trying, I will say, if we're not going to
go into the Onion Mountain cast, are we we can?

Speaker 2 (24:35):
We can? I just actually I watched your video the
other day on it. I thought it was excellent. I
thought it was excellent.

Speaker 4 (24:40):
Yeah, thank you. I'm not trying to make anybody mad.
I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers. I'm just trying
to take a solid approach to it and offer my opinion.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
And well, that's what we're talking about science here though.
This is we're trying to introduce science to this subject
that has shrouded in mythology and like, I don't know
what's the word, like spook ism, you know, like where
people move on they have ridiculous things that they believe
and they move forward with that because they believe it
with no evidence to support it. Right, We're trying to
introduce this the rules of evidence to this particular game.

(25:14):
I don't think anybody should be so emotionally attached to
their evidence that when somebody with qualifications refutes it that
they get but hurt about it and crawl away or
get angry about it. I think that there's plenty of
room for people to disagree and have, you know, adults
and coherent conversations about things and come to some conclusion.
You know, I've been wrong lots of time. I've been

(25:35):
very publicly wrong lots of times about things that I've
said about Bigfoot. But man, that's the nature of the game.
If you're talking about Bigfoot out loud, you're probably going
to say some things that aren't true eventually on accidents,
even if you're doing your best to tell the truth
all the time. You know, it's just one of those things.
And so, like, I agree with you, I don't think
that the Onion Mountain track does show dramaticglyphics. I did

(25:56):
it first because I took somebody else's word for it.
But at the time time, because we kind of give
away our power in some ways when we go to
people who know more than us, and I think that's
an appropriate thing. Like I would always refer to you
because you live in a world of dramaticglyphics, you know
what I mean. I would have to give that to
you because you know so much more about it than

(26:17):
I ever will. And I think that's appropriate. We can't
know everything about everything, right. I have great misgivings about
calling the Rinklefoot impressions as having dramatical ethics. I think
those are water striations because I found similar markings on
my cement floor in my garage. And there's another cast
actually from the nineteen eighty two Grays Harbor events that

(26:39):
I actually uncovered myself. I was like hidden, nobody knew
about it until probably twenty twelve or something like that.
Turns out a woman up in Elma, Washington and had
this cast in her garage that her husband casts at
the same day as the Hereford casts. All these other
casts were taken. They show the same casting artifacts as
the Onion Mountain cast. So, and certainly those are not

(27:01):
dramatic elypics. I think there's lots of room for disagreement.
But and of course then you get into the things
that are clearly dramaticlyphics, clearly dramaticlyphics, But then there are
still questions were they introduced afterwards? Because humans have a
very bad habit of touching things that they're interested in.
Are they from the sasquatch? And there'sre's so many questions
that are left unanswered and so far, I mean, Jimmy

(27:24):
chilcut I think was very brave by sticking his neck
out like that. I disagree with a couple of his conclusions,
but that doesn't take away anything from his expertise in
my opinion. And I'm glad you're in the game now,
I guess is kind of what I'm saying at the
end of the day. But we have a lot to
learn about sasquatch dramaticlyphics. And one of the first things
that I want to ask about the sasquatch dramaticallyphics or

(27:46):
any ape dramaticlyphics is, and you may or may not
know this, I don't know, do they come in different sizes?
And like, for example, if I look at or even
human human dramaticlyphics, are they more or less generally uniform
in spacing and that sort of stuff? And how does
that differ in the other ape species? All Right, So
the answer is, yeah, they do vary within humans or

(28:09):
within species.

Speaker 4 (28:10):
Within humans and species not so much. I think the
only real studies that I've seen within humans is comparing
like adult males to adult males and adult females to
adult females. And basically, the female friction ridges are there
going to be more dense, They're going to have more

(28:30):
of them closer together, and they're going to be a
little thinner, you know, in diameter cross and the males
are going to be larger now definitely children as you go,
of course, they're going to be smaller now. Chill Cut
was nice enough to send me some texts with some
pictures of different types, and I think I had a
couple monkeys and orangutan and a gorilla of fingers, And

(28:55):
while there was no scale in the in the photographs,
it was readily apparent that they were of different sizes
and even spacing. I found it pretty interesting in that
one of the smaller monkeys actually had very wide ridges.
I expected it to be smaller, you know, you know,
body goes smaller, ridges go smaller. I expected that to happen,

(29:18):
but it didn't appear as though it did. But that
also could be a perspective issue with the with the picture,
since there was no scale. But I think when I
look at some of the bottom of gorilla feet and
I see the crazy amount of ridge flow there and
it looks so similar to ours. But they're also, you know,

(29:39):
about the same size. I have never seen a gorilla foot,
but I'm talking about as in like height wise, but
I would say definitely that they vary in size, and
I wouldn't be surprised if something that was eight nine
feet tall that those ridges weren't wider, I wouldn't be surprised.
But I also am going to reserve it or seeing

(30:00):
the variances between the monkeys and the gorillas and the
chimpanzees and so on, that I wouldn't be surprised if
it wasn't stilled our size.

Speaker 2 (30:10):
Yeah, the derms that I've seen on the Freeman cast
do seem to be about the same as human size,
and I've never you know, I don't know how to
measure anything quite that small personally, but they don't to
my eye, at least, they don't look dramatically different in
any that's in any way. And that could be because
Fraeman touched some prints. We know that Paul did that
at some point. We know that in the very very

(30:32):
first time he cast prints in June of nineteen eighty two.
He definitely touched the footprint in the ground because there
are there are finger marks. And again, I mean lots
of people do this. You can see the same features
and the one cast from peter Burn, there's evidence of
touching the footprint for Bob Titmas. A lot of people

(30:54):
have touched stuff in the ground when they look at it.
That's just what humans do, of course, So we don't
know if that was introduced or not, mister Freeman or not.

Speaker 4 (31:02):
That was something that you introduced to me that I
never even considered when we were talking when I was
first looking at one of those casts, and you reminded
me that when somebody comes across something that looks so
crazy that their first instinct is to reach in and
touch it. And I'm like, whoa, you know, my brain
is in a different world, you know, for law enforcement.

(31:22):
And then it totally made sense, and I was like, okay,
let me rethink, you know, because my brain was going
straight to someone maybe fabricating something versus accidental or unintentional.

Speaker 2 (31:37):
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bogo.
Will be right back after these messages. Yeah, I know
whether people have recommended things to you, but ignore them.
Read doctor Krantz's book. I'm kidding, of course, like listen
to everybody, but doctor Krantz's book is a fantastic first step.

(31:59):
There's actually when you're someone like you whose expertise is dramaticglyphics,
because he's the first guy that really advocated for it,
and he felt at the time that the dramatoglyphic evidence
was strong enough that perhaps those can be accepted as
the holotype of the species. In other words, can we
prove the species with the dramatoglyphics to avoid killing one.

(32:21):
That was his intent that he was saying, well, this
can't be fake. And he brought it to various experts,
and some of these experts you may even know, because
he does name some of some of them in the book.
I don't remember what their names were, of course, but
you might have heard of these things being in your
specialized field he was. That was his intent to try
to prove the species without killing one, even though he
was more than happy to kill one too. He's very

(32:42):
very well known for that. Do you think that dramatoglyphic
evidence could rise to that level.

Speaker 4 (32:48):
I think the problem that we have no matter what,
when we're looking at friction ridges or dermal ridges within
those footprints that we find or on a cast, is
we may be able to definitively say yes, these are
dermal ridges, and the depositor actually put those there. I

(33:08):
think the problem is it's not a controlled sample, like
no one, you know, actually observed a big foot stepping
into that spot and leaving those those dermal ridges within
that footprint. I think if you were to hand me
a fifteen you know, sixteen foot cast and there were
clear dermal ridges running from end to end, I think

(33:33):
we may have something there.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
Fifteen foot you mean inch cast?

Speaker 4 (33:36):
I assume fifteen inch fifteen inch, Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
This is a sixty foot bigfoot. Yeah, unbelievable.

Speaker 4 (33:44):
I think you know, it's going to have to be
something large, because if it falls within the human realm,
you know, the human size, then that's easily just dismissed.
But you give me something that no one's ever seen
in the middle of nowhere, I think a lot of
people still aren't going to accept it. But someone like
me may be able to look at those friction ridges

(34:04):
and say, listen, that went in with the original impression
and in the ground. I don't know what to tell you.
I don't know anything else, but those went in with
the impression into the ground and they weren't introduced later
that can be done.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
That brings up an interesting question, at least to my mind.
And this is something that Jimmy Chilcut was advocating for.
And I don't know if it's true, but maybe you do.
Maybe you don't know yet, but this is definitely something
that you probably can figure out. Do Different species of apes,
including humans, have different ridge flow patterns. So if you
look at a blank canvas and you have enough dramaticlythics,

(34:41):
can you tell if it came from an orangutan? Can
you tell if it came from bonobo? Could you tell something? Oh,
this is an unknown species because this is a ridge
pattern that I've never seen before. Or are they all
more or less the same? Because, as you so astutely
pointed out in your fantastic video about the Onion Mountain cast,
dramaticlythics are perpendicular to the direction of growth and a foot,

(35:02):
and therefore your feet all grow the same, and so
the ridge flu patterns are more or less the same.

Speaker 4 (35:07):
It would begin with having those known, those exemplar samples,
So I would, honestly, I would have to have a
series of bonobo footprints right to be able to compare
to them.

Speaker 2 (35:21):
Could you have a bonobo foot?

Speaker 4 (35:23):
If you had one, you could say there is a possibility,
because even on the bottom of my foot versus the
bottom of my partner's foot at work, he has a
loop pattern that goes right across the center, and mine
all goes straight across. So you can still have a
few variances here and there, but generally speaking, they're all

(35:44):
going to be about the same because all of our
human feet grow the same way. You're right, but I
would I'm speaking out a turn when I'm saying I
have not seen enough of the bottom of any of
the monkey's feet or eight feet to be able to
tell you what's a consistent known I would guess that

(36:05):
they pretty much since they're pretty much forming the same
way throughout their species. You know, remember when I was
talking about developmental stability. If all their feet are basically
growing the same way, then I'm expecting for all those
friction ridges to grow the same way with just a
few tiny variances. That makes them individual.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
Are you aware of a company called Skeletons Unlimited or
Bones Clones. They're two different companies. They cross license some stuff,
so they have a lot of the same catalog. Are
you familiar with that company at all or either one
of them? Rather?

Speaker 4 (36:36):
I am, I am okay.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
Are you aware that they make life casts of the
feet and the hands of the great apes?

Speaker 4 (36:44):
Yes, I just can't afford it.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
Oh yeah, yeah, And I bought an orangutan life casts
from them for display at the North American Bigfoot Center.
It went on a display with the orangu Dang, which
is a large biped that that it's reported to live
in western Sumatra, and they, unlike a sasquatch, they have
a big toe that is abducted, which means off to

(37:08):
the side like a thumb. And yeah, yeah, it's very
very interesting. And people have argued, no, that's just an
orangutan on the ground, But so I put an orangutan foot,
actual life casts of an orangutan foot on the same
display as the Orangu Dang casts that I managed to
obtain and clearly showing that they are not the same
at all. But I guess the point is that the

(37:29):
orangutan foot life cast you can see the dramaticalytics plane
as they That might be an interesting avenue and it's
probably tax deductible for you to go ahead and and
purchase the whole slew of hand and foot im pressure
or life casts from this company. I actually have hand
casts from all the great ape species humans and bonobos

(37:52):
and chimps and orangutans and gorillas and sasquatches in another
display at the North American big Foot Center to show
their similarities and differences, and they to show the dramatic
lipics on the on the hands. So I mean it's
hard to get actual ape hands because all ape species
are endangered at this moment except for humans too. Well, yeah,

(38:12):
we're in danger for ourselves.

Speaker 4 (38:14):
I think.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
Yeah, but yeah, you hear what I'm saying. You smell.
You're smelling when I'm stepping in. I think that might
be a good way for you to to increase your
breadth of study into the non human primates.

Speaker 4 (38:25):
I don't know what kind of money you think the
police pay me.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
Man, I'm a big footer, I'm a big fetter. You
got to be making more than me. Put it on
the police budget. There you go, there you go you.

Speaker 3 (38:39):
Know you know what, Well, speaking of like hand prints
and stuff for your purposes, wouldn't it be better to
have like the glass on windows and stuff like that,
or the side of ability that's that's a lot better
to get their baticle things off a hand than trying
to get a print like was bending down on a
water hole or something like that.

Speaker 4 (38:57):
Right, Oh, absolutely, I would love to get my hands
on some of that stuff. That's our bread and butter.

Speaker 3 (39:04):
Yeah, because clip after we had the guests No Way
Bigfoot on in Ohio, I've been wanting to talk to
you since that. That was a couple months ago. He
said that you can prove that those were made by
a human.

Speaker 4 (39:15):
I can prove that the hand impressions that are in
those dusty areas like the table and the grill that's shown,
those hands were actually set down in the dust and
wiggled back and forth to make the impression. And that's
something that I wouldn't think that a bigfoot walking by

(39:39):
and accidentally touching something which stand there and press their
hand and wiggle it back and forth. It almost looks
like it's intentionally made to make the impression.

Speaker 3 (39:49):
Yeah, because I was least impressed with that part. But
the prints on the glass on the vehicle, those are
the ones I found, like the baby gorilla armed comparison
and all that, I found that pretty compelling. Like I mean,
I haven't seen a lot of Bigfoot researchers that take
those final detailed photos because she's like a professional photographer.

Speaker 4 (40:08):
So I've looked at those very carefully, and almost all
of those impressions that are on the glass, especially on
the car, those were pressed straight down and lifted straight up.
Well some of them were. There are some fingerprints that
they show that I don't think that they realize that

(40:31):
they're actually inverted, and they go up underneath that little
rubber strip that's at the top part of the window
of the glass of the driver's side door. And the
only way that that could have been deposited is if
that window was down and a hand from inside the
car deposited those fingerprints and then the window was rolled

(40:54):
back up. Those cannot have been deposited unless the window
was down and then rolled back up up again and
then they were also inverted. So more than likely that's
from somebody having the door open with the window down
and they're reached up and grabbed the glass, and you know,
like you go to pull your door shut, but you
grab the glass. That's exactly what it looked like. Then

(41:15):
there's another one that she says it looks like a
juvenile gorilla elbow. Oh not that one. It was a
juvenile footprint that was on the on the glass as well.
And she does a comparison of a like a monkey
foot or a gorilla foot and put some side by side.
But it's actually the right side of the writer's palm

(41:36):
of a hand. It's it's it's not a foot. I
was able to easily identify that and just move on
the arm. I can't tell you it's definitely an arm,
but I can't tell you where it came from. There's
not enough identifying characteristics on it to say what made
but it is an arm. But my problem is is

(41:56):
once I start to see a bunch of red flags,
and it's one red flag after another after another, I mean,
I could be very well. I could very well be wrong,
but not wrong about the impressions. I want to be
clear about that, but I could be wrong about the
entire situation. I don't want to say anybody's faking anything,
but they could be misinterpreting some of the stuff that's happening.

(42:18):
And that's what I think is happening. I think maybe
some stuff happened on her property and in looking for
other evidence, may have found some that she's just misinterpreting.

Speaker 3 (42:29):
Yeah, I don't think. I don't think she's a hoaxer
at all. I mean a misinterpretation would my mind, would
be the most logical if you can show that, yeah,
this is indeed not deposited by a bigfoot.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
So now that we're talking about impressions on or not
impressions that's the fray word, but marks I guess on
glass and whatnot. You know, I do hear a lot
of bigfooters claiming to have, you know, a handprint on
the back of their car, or an arm print on
top of the hood, and these sorts of things. What
is the correct way to deal to really get the

(43:04):
most to deal with that kind of evidence and also
get the most out of that evidence, because clearly there
would be sebum on it, which of course is the
goo that coats our body, you know, and there might
be DNA in there. Is it just a matter of
collecting the pattern itself. I doing a fingerprint lift of
some sort. What would like you do if you went
and camping at one of your spots and then you
found a big old handprint on the side of your car,

(43:27):
what would you do to collect that evidence and get
the most out of it.

Speaker 4 (43:31):
So the very first thing that I would do is
I would put some type of scale or fix some
type of scale on the window next to that impression.
And the reason that I'm going to do that first
is because I'm going to take a series of like
three hundred and sixty degree photographs to show where my
vehicle is, you know, put it in a context where

(43:53):
is my car? And it also shows from a distance
where by that pression is. You can see the sticker
or the scale hanging there, So now you know where
it is. So when I do my closer up photographs,
you don't think, well, and I can't even tell where
that is, you know, That's that seems to be a problem.

Speaker 3 (44:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
Context, That's actually something I don't really think about as
much as I should, the context of the situation. I
always zero in on, say the footprint or the thing
of interest, and I rarely show the context and take
a bunch of pictures like that.

Speaker 4 (44:26):
Yeah, it's easy to get tunnel vision because you get
excited and you're like, oh my gosh, there's my evidence.
I got to get it. I'm going to take pictures
of it. But you do need to take those three
hundred and sixties placing it where it's at, because everyone's
going to say, well, where was this, And if you
take a shot behind the car and it's behind a kmart,
now you have a problem, right, But if you're doing
three sixty and you're out in the middle of nowhere,

(44:48):
it may lend some more credibility. But so I would
do that, and then i'd come in and do those pictures,
just like I did with the footprint earlier, with the sidelighting.
With the that's all you need. If you can see
it with your eyes without having put powder on it,
then you can hit side lighting on it and it's
going to make it pop. I think the biggest mistake

(45:09):
people make is trying to angle their camera to get
the right image because they can't see it and they're
using the glare to try to see it. What they
should be doing is keeping that camera parallel to the
surface and using your own lighting from the sides to
make it pop and a little trick. If you have
clear glass and you're having trouble putting it making it

(45:30):
show up, you can put something dark on the other
side of the glass. We carry like black sheets of paper,
black fingerprint cards, and we'll actually tape it to the
other side of the glass so it can offer some contracts.

Speaker 2 (45:43):
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo.
We'll be right back after these messages.

Speaker 4 (45:55):
So after the photographing, the next thing that we would
do is we would look to see if there's an
area that may lend itself for swabbing for DNA, so
basically a spot that's not going to have our good
dermal ridges, you know, maybe just some smears or something.
So we've already documented it with the camera. Now we

(46:15):
can touch the stuff that doesn't matter. So now I
can take my swabs of the stuff that doesn't have
my dermal ridges and I'll tell you Now, you know,
it used to be we we fingerprint powder everything now still,
but we mainly work from photographs on fingerprints, so scale
with photographs, that's pretty much it. But if you want
to take it with you, now it's time to break

(46:36):
out the fingerprint powder or something else. You know a
lot of people of I have a partner who has
a YouTube channel to The Science Detective, and he just
did an episode where they used makeup the process for fingerprints.

Speaker 2 (46:50):
We did that actually on a face smudge from Texas.
I was at a conference and the people had a
who had multiple sasquatch encounters on their property found a
big face smudge at about like six and a half
or so feet above the ground on their one glass
when they closed all the curtains every single night because
the bigfoot they saw on their property freaked them out.

(47:11):
And the only one on their in their entire house
that hasn't been blocked off was the front door, and
they found a big face smudge higher than any taller
than anybody else in the house, you know, like above
anybody else's level. And I went to the Texas conference
in Jefferson by Craig Ruole Heater's conference a few years ago,
and the witnesses were there and they actually removed the
door and brought it to us.

Speaker 4 (47:33):
I was laughing because I was just thinking, we've done
the same thing where we've gone. It looks too fragile,
we're taking the door.

Speaker 2 (47:39):
Yeah, Yeah, it was really nice of them to do,
and Shelley coming to Montana and I got to work,
and of course I heard that they were doing this
when I was already en route to the airport, you know,
so I couldn't bring my fingerprint kit that I have
at home or anything like that, And so I was
texting back and forth with Shelley and she actually used
like I makeup of some and crunched it up even

(48:01):
further and made a very very fine black powder and
we use that in lieu of the graphite powder that
we would normally use for a fingerprint lift. And we
pulled the facelift and it's actually in the museum right
now too, So that's kind of a neat thing that
we have on display.

Speaker 4 (48:15):
Yeah, if you understand the process, you can get creative
with your materials. It's amazing.

Speaker 2 (48:20):
Yeah, improvising, right, improvising so always. I'm a jazz musician
after all.

Speaker 3 (48:25):
So still do they still recommend doing that, like heating
up super glue and like putting like a little tart
type thing over the glass or the whatever the prints
on and then letting the super glue heat up like boil,
and that cloud that comes off it will make a
perfect it'll cover the print perfect for show.

Speaker 4 (48:47):
Yeah, so we still use super glue fuming inside the lab.
We don't do it out in the field so much.
We pretty much use like black fingerprint powder out in
the field if we're gonna go for fingerprints. But we
make the distinction when we're out on is it something
we can take with us to the lab. If it's
something we can take with us, then it's going to

(49:08):
be super glued. We're not going to put fingerprint powder
on it. Fingerprint powder is more destructive, right, But yeah,
we're gonna use We use super glue every other day.
I was just doing it today.

Speaker 3 (49:19):
Where did you learn this? Did you go to like
the chronicle the FBI school for this or did you
learn from like a distuot apartment or how did you
learn all this?

Speaker 4 (49:28):
So it's it started off just learning how to, you know,
use my fingerprint brush and powder. When I was on
the street, we were required to try to lift fingerprints
off of certain crimes. But when I went to the
crime scene unit. We actually have a large training facility
here in Georgia called the Georgia Public Safety Training Center,

(49:51):
and we were required to basically take all these classes,
you know, so we could get certifications and things like that.
And then I went to a three and a half
month stint at the National Forensic Academy, you know, to
even up my game even more. And then it became
about I became addicted to fingerprints and how to get

(50:13):
them off of difficult surfaces. And that's pretty much what
I do now is read and study how to do that.
It became a what can I do to get off
of this? What can I do to get it off
of this? And me and my partner we became really
good at it. But his area's bloodstain and minus fingerprints
and fingerprint processing, and we actually got so good at

(50:36):
what we do that we're now consulting for different different
agencies and different counties, and we're working cold cases for
other counties. So we got pretty well known in our area.
But it's it's a love, honestly. And I've had some
really challenging things of trying to get fingerprints off of

(50:56):
and unfortunately I figured out one only to find out
that we use the last of the product that they
don't make anymore, So that that was an interesting one.

Speaker 3 (51:06):
What do they teach you about casting? Do they give
to give you any tricks about casting, like footprints, like
what kind of medium do you use? Like do they
use plaster pressure or dental stone? Like what do they
give you any any pointers?

Speaker 4 (51:17):
So we use we use dental stone, you know, different
kinds we've we've played with different kinds. Unfortunately we don't
have snow here, so we don't get to play with that.
I've only read about it and studied it, not I've
not been able to actually do it in practice. But
really and truly, what you have to do is you
can't just carry it around with you and decide to

(51:39):
do it on that you know that one time that
it matters, You have to practice. You have to practice.
And where I get a lot of my practice is
is when I'm teaching it, and not just teaching other csis.
But we have like Citizens Police Academy, we have teenage
Citizens Police Academy and we'll make casts, pull fingerprints, and

(52:02):
you know, the more you teach, more you talk about it,
the better you get. But as far as the casting goes,
I think one of the things that I like to
do is I still like to put that metal frame
around my cast. And I know a lot of people
don't like to do it, but I like to do
it because it helps show the depth, you know, how

(52:22):
deep the the impression was in the ground. And you
know a lot of people they just pour the material
straight in, which you really shouldn't do pouring it straight
in because that can damage you know, if there's any
you know, dermal ridges or anything like that, that weight
to that hitting it right off the bat can damage
some of that.

Speaker 2 (52:42):
So what do you do?

Speaker 4 (52:43):
You pour it from the side you find the high
ground or believe it or not, if you're pouring it
from the side, right on the edge, the weight coming
out of that bag, coming from the side will help
push it in. And once you get that first little
bit into that section that it fell over the edge on,
then you can start pouring in from right there and

(53:04):
let it fill up. But you always start from the
outside and let it go kind of pour in. You
don't just pour it straight into the cat into the impression.

Speaker 3 (53:13):
What about really like muddy ground? Do you guys around
rock salt or anything like that.

Speaker 4 (53:17):
I've never used salt or anything like that. I did
watch a guy try to use a straw and suck
the water out because it started raining and he was
dead set on getting that impression. He ended up getting it,
but he built stuff put an umbrella around it. I
think it just became a I'm not giving up, you know,

(53:37):
it's not gonna beat me kind of thing. But as
far as super muddy prints, unfortunately in our line of work,
we don't have the time. What we're gonna do then
is we're going to photograph to the best of our
ability and do everything like we did before, and there's
a chance we may have to leave it if it's

(53:58):
too muddy and it's not going to take the material,
it would just give way. Now, if it was personally
and I was out and I found something that I
thought was a big foot impression, I'm camping there right.
I'm not leaving the impression until and I'm gonna protect
it because that's a piece of evidence. You can't let go.

(54:18):
You know, I'm not leaving it.

Speaker 2 (54:20):
Well, you deal with what I've done. Whether there's standing
water inside of a footprint, or it's super saturated soil
or whatever is it. You just make the mix thicker,
and it seems to it sucks a lot of the
water out of the ground, or it uses the water
that's standing in the impression and kind of adds that
to the mix. So you can actually just make a
pretty thick mix and depending on how much water is

(54:41):
present anywhere from you know, like but I always shoot
personally for like a pancake batter consistency when I do plaster,
but you know, it can be thicker than that, even
all the way up to almost like a just under
a clay, and it'll I find that it'll actually absorb
a lot of the water in the ground or the
standing water and the impression. Am I doing that incorrect?

(55:03):
Or would you have a different way to look at
that problem with a solution?

Speaker 4 (55:07):
So when we were first talking about it, I thought
I was thinking about like standing water and stuff like that,
But if we're talking about just like a super saturated
kind of thing. I've seen this method employed and it
works fairly well. You take your your dental stone and
you use like a flower sifter, and you just kind
of lightly put like a small layer of the dental

(55:31):
stone straight in without mixing. You just kind of, you know,
like a just kind of sifted over the impression and
you let it sit for a second, and then you
do it again and again until you get like that
fine little layer and it can help harden that little bit.
Then you can start pouring your regular cast, I mean
your regular material.

Speaker 2 (55:49):
I was told you could do that same technique with snow,
and I've done a little bit of experimenting with it.
It seems to work, okay. I I don't think I'm
doing it right, but it seems okay. But i'd like
to I don't. I'm not a big fan of snow personally,
but I do need to get out into the snow
just to practice a little bit more with that technique.
So beyond snow acts, would you recommend trying that?

Speaker 3 (56:12):
Is that?

Speaker 2 (56:12):
Am I on the right path with that one?

Speaker 3 (56:14):
Now?

Speaker 4 (56:14):
Remember I told you I'm I'm in Georgia. We don't
have snow.

Speaker 2 (56:18):
Well, it's this white cold stuff. It's terrible. You would
hate it.

Speaker 4 (56:22):
I've read, I've read about it. Now I've read about
I think there's another method too, where it's like this
weird sulfur mix that it's a powder that they sprinkle
over it. I don't know exactly how it works, because again,
not ever really a concern of mine. If it snows here,
it's melted in an hour or so, unless it's you know,

(56:43):
two of our major storms in the past ten years.

Speaker 3 (56:45):
Well, what about a hairspray, Like people always talk about hairspray.
He's in that to secure the truck and then pour it.
It sounds like that sounds like it damages it to me.

Speaker 4 (56:55):
So hairspray is an interesting thing because it can work
wonderfleet or it can hurt you. I recently read a
paper on using hair spray on two different types of sand.
It was construction sand versus beach sand. I think the
study was flawed because they didn't tell you what beach
because you know, all beaches have like different types of sand.

(57:17):
But they determined that the beach sand was better off
without the hair spray, and the construction sand got better
cast with the hairspray. So basically, what I learned from
that was, if I'm going to use hairspray for my
area or for a different type of soil that I've
not used before, I may forego it until I've at

(57:39):
least practiced on it and see what it will do
to my soil.

Speaker 3 (57:44):
Would you hold it like would you hold it like
far away and just kind of fog it like not?
You wouldn't want it like a drug you'd want to
be like subtle feet away, right.

Speaker 4 (57:52):
Yeah, you wanted to just miss and kind of fall in.
You don't. You don't want that air pressure disturbing anything
within a cast. I also heard something the other day.
I made a remark, and maybe you guys can answer
this for me. I heard somebody talking about I made
a remark about how come every time I see a
cast or a picture of a foot impression that someone's

(58:12):
saying is a bigfoot, it looks like somehow the foot
removed all the material within it. You know, it's like
all this beautiful grass, but then there's mud. And someone
told me that they're removing all the material out of
the impression so they can take pictures, and then that's
kind of a thing. Is that a thing?

Speaker 2 (58:31):
Well, I personally would remove anything that isn't attached to
the ground because it gets in the way of the impression,
especially in photographs. I mean, if you're just going to
cast it, it'll just engulf whatever. It's like whatever pine
needles or a branch might be above it, and you
can just break it off later and set the cast.
But I would try to remove anything that isn't actually
connected to the ground. If it shows any resistance when

(58:51):
I might maybe tap it or something like that, I
just leave it in. Personally, that's what I've ended up doing.

Speaker 4 (58:57):
I think I would do the same thing, but I
would photo the way it was found first. That way,
it doesn't look like I found it the way you know,
found it with all that stuff out of it.

Speaker 2 (59:09):
Yeah, And actually it's interesting that you even said that,
because I was out yesterday. I went yesterday and the
day before to one of my spots because there's some
tracks up on the hill right now, and I found
in the drainage dish on the side of the road.
And I'll even Texas to you as i'm speaking to you,
but I on the side of the road a little
mark there they go that kind of looks like a print.
I thought that was interesting, and and I was thinking, well,

(59:30):
that seems odd because all the duff has is not there,
but it's everywhere else in the in the ditch. It's
probably not a track, but I'm going to take a
picture of it anyway, just to document it, et cetera.
And then I brought that I found that on Monday,
today's Wednesday. In case everybody's listening here, in case anybody's listening.
It's Wednesday, so I forget people listen at all. But

(59:53):
Monday I found the track right, and I said, oh,
that's cool. I took a picture of it. And so
when I send you the picture and I'll give this
the map prode as well, you can put it on
social media or something like that. I put the scale item.
I lined it up with the edge of what I
interpreted as a possible print. But I didn't really understand. Well,
maybe maybe the foot was wet and removed the duff
at the time or whatever. So the next day I

(01:00:14):
went back with Nico, who has been a guest in
the program. He's the manager at the nd OFBC and
we're all friends here, but he knows who Nico is.
Nico has undergone, you know, training on tracking and all
that sort of stuff, so he has a different eye.
You know. I'm just a hobbyist that enjoys it. He's
been trained. When I said, hey, Nico, look at this
suppression that might be a footprint. I think that's interesting.

(01:00:36):
And he got down on the ground and he goes, oh, yeah,
look look at the toes. And what I didn't see
the toes? So I went down on the ground, and
sure enough, in front of this bear patch on the ground,
you could see plain as day four to five toes
impressed into the duff itself. And so I'm now facing
this this is not a problem, but this mystery. Okay, Well,

(01:00:59):
what were the circumstances when the sasquatch stepped there and
there was another print up on the hill. It wasn't
just an isolated thing, right, you know. So I'm looking
at this situation now that since sasquatches do not walk
in the same way that humans do. You know, they
walk by pevidly and you know, superficially the same, but
they're very very different gates and actually the inner the

(01:01:21):
dynamics and the interaction between their feet and the ground
are dramatically different than in humans. They push off, they
don't really use their toes to push off to the
same extent as humans do. And I see this again
and again and again when I'm looking at footprints in
the ground itself, that all the pressure is on the
planter surface, it's not on the toes itself. And I

(01:01:45):
think this is one of those cases that the pressure
or the circumstances at the time, maybe it was wet,
maybe there's water flowing in the ditch. I don't know
when this impression was made, right, So there's something about
the circumstances in which this impression was put down that
the toes impressed made the lines that look like, you know,
fingers or toes or whatever, but the rest of the
surface of the foot apparently picked up what duff there was,

(01:02:08):
or made it loose enough that it washed away or something.
I don't know what I'm looking at here, but it's
an interesting conundrum for me because when I went back
with Nico and looked at it, I mean, it was
plain as day that was a Sasquatch print. Thirteen to
fourteen inches long, four to five toes are clearly visible.
That they are a little hard to see in the photograph,

(01:02:30):
but they were absolutely there, absolutely there, And I was
astonished when I looked at it.

Speaker 4 (01:02:35):
Well, it sounds like you analyzed it fairly well. I mean,
I see the same thing on cars all the time.
One of the worst things that happens to me is
when they tell me to go process a car that
was used in a crime and I walk into the
evidence bay and I see the dang thing covered in
dirt and my first thought is, oh, man, because they're like, look,
there's fingerprints. I'm like, no, that's finger marks. That's where

(01:02:58):
that's where I hand touched the dirt and their oily
stuff lifted the dirt right off. There's there's nothing here.
But it sounds like you pretty much have already nailed
it right on.

Speaker 3 (01:03:09):
Yeah, it was.

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
It was really interesting to me. So that is one
of these circumstances where the foot actually did remove a
lot of the stuff in the ground. And so I'm
actually looking a little more closely because back in the
day it's like, well, why would there be no stuff there,
but there's stuff everywhere else, you know, kind of the
issue that you were just mentioning there. I mean, of course,
and I of course remove a lot of the debris
before I cast it if it's removable without disturbing the soil.

(01:03:34):
But here we are, like, we're looking at a case
in the ground where a sasquatch stepped there and somehow
removed the duff with his feet, not purposefully, but just
as an interaction between the ground and the surface of
the foot. So that's another area that I apparently need
to explore because it's happening. I mean I saw in
the ground with my own eyes. Hopefully I'll take Bobo

(01:03:55):
up there tomorrow or the next day to show him
the print in the ground as well before the rain
takes it.

Speaker 4 (01:03:59):
So I just got I just got that picture, and
I can see those toes.

Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
Yeah, I didn't when I first looked at it because
I was so tunnel visioned on the on the bare
dirt part.

Speaker 4 (01:04:11):
You know, well, I'll be honest with you, I wouldn't
have seen them had you not said anything about it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
Yeah, Luckily I got a scan of it. I can't
do a cast because yesterday when I was poking at
it and stuff that all that duff around it is
very light and fluffy. I don't see how a cast
could be could record that the unfortunately, So wow, all.

Speaker 4 (01:04:29):
Right, well that's one of those things that comes across
and I go, interesting, Well.

Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
I love that you're actually getting out there, because again,
looking back six or eight months whenever that was when
you reached out, you're basically saying, I think they might
be real, but I want your help to convince me
kind of, you know. So, Well, now you're going out
in the woods, and you've taken another large step in
that direction. I think that's just fantastic as far as
keeping an open mind and being open to whatever comes next,

(01:04:55):
because I've told you several times and you don't need
to believe me at all. But they're real, They're actually there,
and that's probably one of the weirdest things about it,
you know, the weirdest thing about the species is that
they're actually there.

Speaker 4 (01:05:07):
I felt like I could trust you.

Speaker 2 (01:05:10):
I don't lie. I'm wrong a lot, but I don't lie.

Speaker 4 (01:05:13):
But you were I do believe that. I do believe
that wholeheartedly. But you're You're also kind enough to start
sending me things. And once that happened, it became a
I don't know that I can wait for more, you know,
because you said some stuff really fast, but then it
slowed down because you're so busy. And then I was like, well,
I don't know that I can wait any longer. I

(01:05:34):
gotta go out and see if I can find myself.

Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
Pusher. Yeah, a pusher of the Bigfoot drug right exactly.
I gave you a couple of free samples, and I
was going to keep coming back from calling please more,
Please more.

Speaker 4 (01:05:49):
That's pretty much what happened.

Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
Yeah, Well, you know, I'll make you a couple of copies.
I've got some pretty good molds of some of those
early Freeman casts. I'd love your take on that stuff.
I have a couple of the original Freeman's in my
possession now. Of course, the rest of them will be
coming in the next year or so when doctor Meltrim
retires because of an arrangement we made with the Freeman's
estate there, they're gonna become living at the museum itself,

(01:06:11):
so hopefully you can get out to the West Coast
and check them out in person. But I've got to
make some really high quality molds of the originals because
most of my Frameman stuff with therms or second gens,
or I have the first gens, but there's some second
you know. If I can make molds like my quality,
like high quality, Cliff quality molds of the originals, I
think I can preserve a lot of the details, at
least until I can get you on the West coast here,

(01:06:32):
you know. And i'd love your take on that stuff,
because every time I've shared something with you, you have
far surpassed my expectations as far as your response. You know,
I gave you a cast, Hey, what do you think
of this. I expected an email going, oh, that's pretty interesting,
but no, you gave me like a fourteen page report
with photographs and analysis and citations, and it was I
was astonished. I go, oh, crap, this guy's the like.

(01:06:54):
Not that I knew you're the real deal, but this
guy's into it right on because.

Speaker 3 (01:06:59):
You called it all excited.

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
You're like, you discuss George as he's a bass man.
Because the only reason I'm good at all is because
I surround myself with people who know more than me.
You know, you're welcome, Bobo, but I am thrilled to
have you on the team, so to speak, and anything
I get, I just want to know what you think,
because you know, if I'm wrong, Okay, I'm wrong, I'm

(01:07:23):
not necessarily a proud person. I was wrong about the
London cast on National TV, for example. You know, but
the important thing about all this stuff is the truth.
That's what's important about this Because sasquatches, I know, I'm
confident sasquatches are real animals, and if they are real,
if they are truly there as I'm betting my entire

(01:07:44):
life on the truth. Can withstand the scrutiny, and I
want the best eyes in the business, looking at this,
looking hard at this, because the truth can always withstand
the scrutiny.

Speaker 3 (01:07:55):
You see, it's shadowing a lot of a lot of
perceptions and dreams and hopes.

Speaker 2 (01:07:59):
Well, all it takes is one man.

Speaker 4 (01:08:01):
All it takes is one yes, exactly, That's what I'm hoping.
That's what I'm hoping.

Speaker 2 (01:08:06):
Well, well, David, thank you so much for coming on
Bigfoot and Beyond with me and this guy right right
next to me in my house. Really appreciate your expertise,
and I'm also very appreciative of you kind of waiting
into the subject. In five years, you and I can
have a conversation and one of the things I believe,
I predict you will say to me is that this

(01:08:26):
was a bigger a bigger quagmire, a bigger pool, a
bigger subject in general than you ever dreamt. And and
but it's so intriguing that it's going to keep you
going for five years. I know we're going to have
that conversation to some degree on your reflections, because once
the Bigfoot thing grabs hold, it doesn't let go. So
like it or not, Man Gobakaba, hey, you are.

Speaker 4 (01:08:48):
One of us. I honestly think that that's beginning to
happen already. I love I love I love puzzle. I
love puzzles, and this is one gigantic puzzle that has
so many different pieces and go in so many different directions.
I just want to thank you guys for at least

(01:09:09):
being a part of it and helping me begin it.

Speaker 3 (01:09:12):
So thank you, Thank you man. We're so glad to
get people like we're dying for people like you to
get involved more. You know, it's great. We appreciate you.
Thank you so much, and thank you for joining us
to see me.

Speaker 4 (01:09:23):
Thank you. I appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:24):
And listeners out there, you got to check out this
YouTube page. It's called Bigfoot Forensics, done by our guests here.
David's again fantastic stuff, like literally probably one of the
best YouTube channels out there. David just started this just
a few months ago. I think there's four or five
six episodes out at this point. They are fantastic. You

(01:09:45):
gotta check it out Bigfoot Forensics on YouTube. Just just
click that link in the show notes to bring you
right there and help David out here. But help yourself
out by subscribing today.

Speaker 3 (01:09:56):
And you can say you were there at the beginning,
because there's still like under one hundred likes on most
of them, so you could be double digits in the
life count. So you're a pioneer listener if you get
in on it now. So tune into that channel. It's good,
it's great, and thank you David, and until next week,
you're out there, keep it Squatchy.

Speaker 2 (01:10:21):
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Bigfoot and Beyond.
If you liked what you heard, please rate and review
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(01:10:41):
and tweet us your thoughts and questions with the hashtag
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