Ep. 285 - Clobo's Overflow Questions!

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Big Food and on with Cliff and Bobo.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
These guys are your favorites, so like say subscribe and
read it. Im Stard and me.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
Righteous on us today, listening, watching Lim always.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Keep its watching.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
And now you're hosts Cliff Berrickman and James Bubo Fay.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Greetings, Bobo, How you doing? Man?

Speaker 3 (00:33):
Hey? What's up Cliff? How are you doing?

Speaker 2 (00:34):
Things are going all right for the most part. Melissa
was out of town for a little over a week.
She just got back last night. So I always appreciate
having my best friend in the center of my universe around,
so that's cool and joining that. I'm gonna go to
the woods tomorrow. It's been about a week and a
half for a lit over of weeks since I've been there,
so I'm looking forward to doing that as well. What
about you, anything cool going on?

Speaker 3 (00:55):
Well? I had something cool. I did have something cool
going on. I got to go out with you and
uh Art Letterman Polly.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yeah, I was like having it was like the old days,
you know, having like the quote unquote California Crew back together.
You know, we got the band back together for a night,
which is neat. They're at Bluff Creek and what a pleasure.
That was because I was looking at my calendar and
I knew Melissa had to go out of town. And
I basically thought, you know, man, if I want to
get the Bluff, I just like Bluff Creek. I just
wanted to get down there. It's kind of like revisiting,

(01:24):
you know, the Holy Land.

Speaker 3 (01:26):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
I try to do it every year or two at
the very least. And I realized Melissa's headed out of town.
If I didn't do it that at that window, I
wasn't going to do it. And I wanted to see
how the fires were. And I heard the roads are
really good. You told me that, and so I said, okay,
I want to go down and spend a few nights
alone at Bluff Creek. On the way down, I talked
to Bart He's he was going to be down there,

(01:48):
so I called you. I said, hey, Bart's and then
Lighterman was there. So it turns out to instead of
spending three nights alone at Bluff Creek, I got to
spend a night at Buff Creek. Was some of my
best friends and it was awesome. Just loved it.

Speaker 3 (02:00):
Was you were on fire too, you there, weren't they
growner jokes. They're all laughing jokes.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
Oh well, well, either either I'm wearing you down slowly
or you're finally coming around in my sense of humor.

Speaker 3 (02:11):
That was great.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
I'd like to think my humor has not changed.

Speaker 3 (02:16):
I talked to Well, yeah, you got two kinds or
three kinds, I guess. But anyways, Uh, yeah. I talked
to Bart last night for a while, and he to
go through all this audio yet, but he said, you
went through yours if you couldn't find any of those
notes he heard.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah, Well, he brought these rocks from Washington. He liked
the sound of them clacking together, and he was that
night when we went to bed, he was He walked
up and down the road a few hundred yards and
was clacking. And he said that he got a really
weird clacking response back and I and you know, my
recorder was running, and I went through and I got
Bart clacking, but I didn't get anything after it. So

(02:50):
I mean, either the position of my recorder prohibited it,
or perhaps it was just too quiet. And you know,
recorders don't get everything, that's for sure. So yeah, he
heard some stuff responding, but I never did. I never did,
although when I was out there walking around, you know,
both at night and also during the day. There was
some stuff happening. You know. We were at the water
spot and there was a big marsh there and I

(03:12):
was at the I guess it would be the northwest
side of that, one of those marshes, and there was
something on the hill above me, and I say, and
it's probably a bear, because I mean there are tons
and tons of bear there. I mean, everywhere you look,
it's you can find bear prints. It's ridiculous how much
bear is there, which is probably why the Sasquatch is
pop by. And then later on that day, I was
walking the roads. I was out there alone, walking the

(03:34):
roads up and down on the side because the roads
that are all chewed up at this moment because they've
been doing so much road work. And I've been ranting, like,
what a fantastic opportunity this is to find footprints at
Bluff Creek. If you're interested in tracking, everybody should go
to Bluff Creek and check it out. Because the roads
I don't think I been this good for tracking, probably
since the sixties before they graveled them. But anyway, when

(03:55):
I was out there, I got some weird knocky sort
of out noises. I mean, there are a lot of
things are falling from the tree ease, of course, but
I mean these sounded stronger than just something falling from
the trees. And it came from the same general area
as I was hearing something moving around on the hill
above me, so I wouldn't be a bit surprised if
there was one there. It was neat. It was a
lot of fun going there. I haven't been there. I

(04:15):
went to Bluff last year in September, I think it was,
or maybe the year before. Maybe it's been two years.
I don't remember. Two years ago, yeah, but I didn't
I didn't camp there. I camped at Laus Camp and
I went to the film site and all that other stuff.
And I didn't do either of those things this year.
I wish I did. I really wanted to get down
the Lauds, but I just enough time. The next morning,
after Bart heard the knox or the clacks or whatever
you want to call them, I woke up around six

(04:38):
or seven, I think, and it sort of gathered my
stuff and I was probably on the road heading out
by about eight or so something like that, maybe eight
thirty at the most. I had a chance to say
goodbye to Lighterman because he gets up at the crack
of dawn, and then, of course Bart was still asleep,
so I just bailed. But I drove into Willow Creek
that day and I met up with Eric, one of

(04:58):
the people who manages the museum down there. Super nice guy.
Hung out with him and we kind of went through
the museum a little bit and we talked about some
of the history. I corrected some of the placards that
they might have been mislabeled. He was asking me, well,
where's this cast right here? We just have a label
for it, and I said, oh, it's over here in
this exhibit. So they weren't missing as much as they thought.

(05:19):
We went through through some of the drawers, I started
piecing some things together opened so it kind of solves
some things and also opened other mysterious questions I think, like,
for example, the TIPMSS hand cast from nineteen eighty two,
I believe, I think it was October nineteen eighty two,
I remember right. I had a bunch of photographs courtesy
of Larry Lund that he had never seen before of

(05:42):
the casting of those prints that had various members from
the Bay area group with him. I think Archie Buckley
was there. I'm not sure if Warren Thompson was there
or George Haas was there. I think George Hass was
there as well, but I'm pretty sure Archie Buckley was
there because he's a very particular style and that was
him and photographs. He had never seen any of those
photographs before, and of great interests in those photographs is

(06:08):
after the casting, you see in case our listeners don't know, right,
and a lot of people actually don't know much about
this particular event. People probably know about the fifty eight
stuff that Bob Timmas casts. They may even know about
the fifty nine stuff in November fifty nine that he casts,
and certainly they know about the Patterson Gimlin casts that
he got at the site ten days after Roger and

(06:29):
Bob filmed the thing, and there were a couple other
events in there too. But Bob Timmos was very prolific,
and very few people know much about what he did
because Bob Timmos wrote virtually nothing about it. Whatever he
did write is written in his own handwriting with pencil
on the back of the footprint cast themselves, and those

(06:50):
are on display in the Willow Creek Museum, but they're
obviously displayed footprint side up, not the other way around, right,
So a lot of that information has never really been
seen before by the public. And of course he was
a very quiet guy. He didn't really look for attention.
He certainly wasn't in a purposeful influencer by any stretch
of the imagination, which is probably why he's so respected,

(07:12):
except for you know, there was obviously that cattiness between
the old time researchers and stuff, and a lot of
people tried to tear Bob Timmas down, unfortunately, and you
can read stories about that, mostly which are.

Speaker 3 (07:22):
Fault a lot of people.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
Some yeah, a couple, a couple. But in nineteen eighty two,
see Bob Timmis would go to Bluff Creek for about
a month every year around October, and he chose October
because not only was the Patterson Giblin film taken in October,
but is also the Jerry Cruse stuff was from October
as well. And of course Roger Patterson, on a trip

(07:47):
down to Bluff Creek in nineteen sixty three, cast footprints
at Lared Meadow in October. So October seemed to be
a very hot month in Bluff Creek. So Bob Timmis
would come down every month for about not every month
every year, for about a month during October and walked
the roads and looked for stuff and generally hang out.

Speaker 3 (08:05):
You know.

Speaker 2 (08:06):
One of these trips, and I think it was in
eighty two, he ran across a trackway up near Laired Meadow,
which is where Roger cast footprints in October nineteen sixty three,
and he followed them to a pond. And that pond
is still there, so virtually the only pond on Laired Mountain,
so it's easy to find, like the only man made
sort of pond. I'm pretty sure it's man made. It's

(08:27):
not very big, it's probably only about thirty feet by
twenty feet or something like that. And the sasquatch went
into the pond and there are footprints in the bottom
of the pond and the thing and it was like
moving like and basically here there were hand prints on
the bottom of the pond too. So what it was doing,
I don't know, maybe foraging for worms or who knows
what kind of food items you find in the bottom

(08:48):
of a silty pond, but it was doing it so
Bob Tipmos drained the pond. He called his buddies, they
came up, they got a pump, they drained the pond,
and Bob cast a handprint two, which is at that
time one of the only hand prints in existence. There's
quite a few more now, but at that time first.

(09:08):
Now it wasn't the first. Ivan Marx had the first
Prince in nineteen seventy, but Ivan Marx is associated with it.
Even though I think those prints are probably real, Ivan
Marx had some other things that were not real later on,
so everything he has done has been cast into doubt, unfortunately.
And then there was the knuckle prints from June nineteen
eighty two from Freeman. But really other than that, there

(09:30):
was virtually nothing, you know, as far as hand prints go,
actual cast at least, so he casts that. But he
also casts a number of footprints, and I believe the
Willow Creek Museum had I think they had six. I'm
pretty sure they had six of these things in their drawers.
But yet the photographs that Larry Lund gave to me

(09:51):
shows nine and say, oh, well, isn't that interesting? Where
are these other casts? And that's that's the story of
my life, right there having a photograph of something that
one cannot find in the data sets, Like, where are
these other casts? I'd really like to see them. And
you know, most most of the prints aren't that great,
but Bob was such a good tracker, and he was
so wise about these things that he would cast them

(10:14):
regardless of quality basically. But a couple of these casts
are actually really good. They show beautiful toes and really
interesting stuff, and then of course the handprint that goes
with it even makes it all the more interesting. So
I thought that was really neat. But yeah, so I'll
be working. I made good friends with Eric of course
when I was down there, the guy, you know, kind
of who's leading the Willow Creek Museum to some I mean,

(10:37):
I want to say leading it, but he's definitely a
force in the Willow Creek Museum. He's really interested in.

Speaker 3 (10:42):
He's the motivator. I mean, he's the guy who make
things happened, for sure.

Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yeah. Yeah, he's kind of like some young blood in there.
And there's a couple of people down there actually that
are doing some stuff, but he's he's a big, big motivator,
as you said. So yeah, so I hung out with
him and also what a treasure this was. He invited
Dave McCoy over to talk to me. I think you've
spoken to Dave, haven't you.

Speaker 3 (11:04):
Bobs, Yeah, I got him recorded.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
Actually yeah, oh, really cool. It'd be interesting to hear that.
I have about a forty five minute interview that I
did that I recorded with him. And yeah, Dave McCoy
is the son of Sil McCoy. Sil McCoy was a
bigfoot researcher back in the early sixties. He did a
lot of stuff with Bob Titmas. He lived down there
in the High and Palm area, is a logger, all

(11:26):
that sort of stuff. You know. He's just a man
of the woods down there, and he was present when
a lot of these famous casts were obtained, like the
High Im Palm Site A and Site B stuff from
nineteen sixty three from April. But there's a lot of
other stuff going on down there that he also had
an association with. He would go out and check out
other footprint fines and come back, oh that's nonsense, or

(11:48):
oh those are real, like cast a couple of them.
So yeah, I talked to Dave McCoy for forty five
minutes and recorded an interview with him, and it was
just a wonderful interview, and I've kept in touch with
Dave Simpson. He invited me next time I come down
to the area. He said he'd be happy to go
show me where some of the stuff happened. Go drive
around High and Palm and get a guided tour from

(12:10):
a McCloy. Oh, I'd be thrilled to do that, of course. Yeah,
Eric and I at the museum, we're talking about trying
to plan some sort of collaboration stuff between my museum
and the Willow Creek Museum. So there's a lot going
on there that a lot to look forward to as
things kind of slowly pan out in the dust settles
in my life here. So there's a lot going on
as usual.

Speaker 3 (12:30):
Well, we got planned for this week. We don't have
a guess that we're just doing a response with the listeners.

Speaker 1 (12:35):
Yeah, I was going to fill you in Bobo since
the last time, one of the last episodes that you
guys did together before we had some guests on, you
had talked about selling the trailer and I posted that
picture of you and the trailer and the feedback was
pretty overwhelming, and so I'm just digging into our comments here,
several people said, like our listener Bill said, I thought

(12:56):
it would look much worse from the way that Cliff
talked about it. Did is in and said the trailer
is a million times nicer looking that I was expecting.

Speaker 3 (13:04):
That what I said clip with suring my deals that
it's had a bad about that, so that we might
have got some takers from the audience.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
My fault did There were a lot of like condolences, like,
you know, Bobo, so sorry I had to part ways
with your trailer. Harry says, what's really funny is Francis said,
simply take me away with you, Bobo. Michelle says, are
you saying you had to part ways with her? Ought?

Speaker 3 (13:32):
People understand.

Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yeah, if we go over to uh Instagram here the
Spooks Creeps podcast said, always in our trailer hearts. Hollyboo
K says nice than I was expecting. So sorry to
see it.

Speaker 3 (13:44):
Go, Bobo. Thank you. People understand how some simpthy It's
well deserved.

Speaker 1 (13:51):
There was someone on Twitter. I didn't pull this one up,
but you know the picture is you and the trailer,
and someone on Twitter said, this is the most beautiful
thing these eyes have ever seen. So I responded and said, yeah,
but what did you think of the trailer?

Speaker 3 (14:05):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (14:06):
You will be missed Bobo's trailer. Oh my god, has
it finally left the building?

Speaker 3 (14:12):
Literally?

Speaker 1 (14:13):
So you know, listeners were really moved by that picture,
and you got a lot of sympathy and condolences for
the trailers being gone there. You know, I think Monkey
had a huge outpouring of love because she was so
well known and was on the TV. But I will
say I think the trailer definitely got more condolences than Sergio.
But you know, we didn't really see that many images

(14:35):
of Sergio unfortunately, so I don't think he quite instantiated
himself into the hearts of our listeners like the trailer did.

Speaker 3 (14:42):
That trailer was stricken awesome. I was just lamenting to night.
I'm like, I'm going to regret that decision more than
anything else in my life. I'm sure getting rid of that.

Speaker 2 (14:50):
That's a staggering statement. I mean I wanted to respond
to it, but I was still processing for seconds after
you said that that you will regret selling that trailer
more than you will re read anything else in your
entire life.

Speaker 3 (15:02):
So far, so.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
Far, Okay, Wow, because I've known you a long time
and I know that you have some very regrettable things
in your past.

Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yeah, I mean we have a recurring segment about regrettable things,
but what storytime that's true.

Speaker 4 (15:22):
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and
Bobo will be right back after these messages.

Speaker 1 (15:34):
We ended up tackling the Q and A the last
session because I'd already put all those together and had
all those in the queue when we found out that
you had some stuff to deal with and couldn't make it.
So we just had a roll with that. So I
did save a couple of the Bobo questions. So one
of the questions we had gotten was from a listener
named Justin Brown who was asking Cliff and I. He

(15:55):
called us the resonant nerds, and he was asking about
video game related things. But he did ask at the
end of his question, Bobo, what is the closest you've
ever been to being nerd adjacent?

Speaker 3 (16:06):
We at the same time with Clip plenty of times.
That's pretty good.

Speaker 1 (16:14):
But I've heard you offer up some pretty heated defenses
of like Lord of the Rings or some other things
that you're like, that's not nerd.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah. Well, also, I would say that Lord of the
Rings there's a lot of whiggle room in there, you know,
like there's a lot of gray area. It's gradients. I
would say that I have certainly walked past the threshold
of nerdiness for Lord of the Rings. And Bobo is
more he really loves it, but I would say he's
more a casual fan isn't quite the right term because

(16:47):
of his love for it. But like Bobo, have you
read the Cimarillion? No, there you go. I think I
think that's probably a good.

Speaker 3 (16:56):
That's someone like languages and all that in it, like
how to translate languages.

Speaker 2 (16:59):
And now now it's it's kind of like the Old
Testament in a way of Lord of the Rings. It's
the backstory, yea worldwide history and context of in which
the Lord of the Rings is set. So yeah, yeah,
like if you don't know what Gondolin is, yeah, you
might enjoy it. It's it's great, it's a wonderful book's.

Speaker 3 (17:17):
Probably I love it. I just haven't read it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah, it is a fantastic book. And it's not easy
to read. The language changes, it's much more formal and
like I said, kind of like it feels like reading
the Old Testament, where you know, the Lord of the
Rings is more narrative and there's dialogue and details and stuff,
whereas in some Maarillion they'll they'll mention a battle that

(17:41):
lasted for a year and a half and it'll be
a paragraph, you know, that sort of stuff. So but
but it is still it's probably my favorite Tolkien work,
so wherever that's worth. But I think that Bobo's love
for Lord of the Rings in Tolkien in general is
perhaps a little bit more casual, where I would say
I have definitely, you know, swam in the in the

(18:01):
pool of nerdiness as far as the Tolkien legendarium goes,
do you speak Elvin.

Speaker 3 (18:07):
Or or or No?

Speaker 2 (18:09):
I know a couple of words, but I wouldn't and
I would not say I speak it by any means.
On I definitely know. I'm not a tricky kind of
guy actually at all, really, so I do enjoy him,
but I'm not I can't say I'm into it.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
So there are a few leftover written submissions from the
Q and a session that we did last time that
we didn't get too so I could I could pop
those in here because a couple of more finding Bigfoot
related So now that we have Clobo present, that would
be good.

Speaker 2 (18:37):
Sure, sure, well here, I'll go ahead read this one. I'll
read the first one here. This was from Laura hey
Gens Laura from Australia. Here, longtime listener and longer time fan, Bobo.
I had to get my own gone squatch and truck
or cap when I saw you wearing it on Finding
Bigfoot back in the day. My question is it seemed
like wherever you went it was almost always squatchy and

(19:00):
there was some form of activity. How realistic was it
that you had activity wherever you went? It sounds like
bumping into a sasquatch when outlooking is quite rare. So
was any of that played up for the camera or
were they actually that active? Because your locations were selected carefully,
there was.

Speaker 3 (19:19):
Plenty of episodes we had no action. I mean, it
was just dead. But we did go to the squatchiest places.
I mean we were working with like some of the
best researchers in the country to go to the best spots.
Like we did tons of research on what time of year,
you know, talking to witnesses and you know, big footers
in the area, so we had pretty good luck because
we were going to new spots all the time. I mean,

(19:40):
you know, like to the best spots.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
Yeah, I think I think we probably batted I'm gonna
guess here, fifty percent, you know. And if you're batting
fifty percent in baseballing and that's like you know, Hall
of Famer stuff, right, fifty percent for Bigfoot, it's amazing.
And really the reason we were so good, we're so lucky,
so good, so whatever, so successful is we had the
databases behind us, you know, money Maker's database, the BFRO

(20:03):
was at our disposal, including a nationwide network of researchers
who were out in the field on a pretty regular
basis interviewing witnesses and learning about stuff. And I had
probably at that point, I myself had twelve hundred reports
probably submitted to me by then. So but Matt had
you know, ten times that, well maybe not ten times, yeah,
maybe ten times or more, you know, of good reports

(20:24):
from almost wherever we went. So if we knew we
were going to someplace, you know, like Mississippi, he would
just call up his Mississippi researchers and say, we're going
to these areas. What do you think what's been going on,
tell me about it, and kind of keep his finger
on the pulse there for a month or so before
we went down there, and say what you I know,
a lot of people don't like Matt for whatever reason.
I like him just fine. In fact, I was literally

(20:45):
texting with him this morning. But he is very good
at finding sasquatches. He maybe right or wrong about some
other things that he says or whatever, and his his hypotheses,
just like we all are, but he is very good
at finding sasquatches and where they are likely to be.
So when he gets the intel from his researchers who

(21:06):
may have just looked into report that happened three weeks ago,
he can start scouring maps in that area and trying
to figure out what's going on and piecing together some
sort of model of what he thinks sasquatches are doing.
And you know, and I'll be darn men, he's right.

Speaker 3 (21:20):
A lot Google Earth and good maps, and my maker
will show you that he will find the spots that
are most likely to have him.

Speaker 2 (21:27):
Yeah, yeah, so yeah, he was. He was a lot
of the reason we're successful, between the BFRO and Matt's
innate ability to locate them, and you know, and you know,
it's not like the rest of us aren't any good either.
But Matt had the resources, and he had the researchers
out there he could tap into. He had the sighting

(21:48):
reports stuff, I mean, the BFRO stuff. If you if
you go online, you only see the tip of the iceberg.
There are a lot of reports that are still behind
the veil, so to speak. And most of the reason
he's not hiding anything from you. I don't see these
things of locks.

Speaker 3 (22:04):
I don't.

Speaker 2 (22:04):
I'm not online in the Bigfoot world very much. But
I do see people who these paranoid fantasies about how
the BFRO is hiding things away and they have a
warehouse full of data that they're not sharing and all
this other nonsense. It's like, man, calm down, your conspiratorial nonsense.
It's not like that at all. But there are a
lot of reports that remain uninvestigated. That's the key there,

(22:28):
because it's an all volunteer organization, and the BFRO, I mean,
I'm not a member. I don't think any of us
here are members, but we were at one point and
I'm not a member just because I find that in
this weird tribal world that we have inherited. If you're
in a group, other people won't work with you, you know,

(22:48):
And it's a group sort of thing. You're either for
me or against me sort of stuff. And I think
that all that is nonsense. I think that's childish personally.
So I'm not in any group whatsoever, So I can
work with whoever whoever wants to work with me. I'm
fine with it. But it's an all The BFRORO is
an all volunteer organization, and no matter how enthusiastic you

(23:08):
think you are about Bigfoot, once you talk to five
or ten witnesses, the fire kind of dims a bit
and you think, well, I'm going to hear another road crossings.
And most people just investigate fewer and fewer reports the
longer they're in any group. And there are some diehards
out there that do it all the time, don't get
me wrong, But most people who get signed up for

(23:28):
the BFRORO, they're on fire for a month or two,
they do three or four, five reports or something, and
then they slowly start neglecting the BFRO stuff because life
gets in the way, and so most reports probably go uninvestigated.
Or they just aren't really worth it because somebody heard
a knock and they think it's more important than a
knock actually is, or a vocalization actually is. But when

(23:50):
you're making a TV show, some of that stuff could
be very useful. If you have an area that you
get all these weird vocalizations from and knocks and a
footprint find that a lot of people would never even
investigate and put and post publicly. Well, that stuff could
add up to it. I mean, Moneymaker's the money Maker math.
We said it on the TV show a couple of times,
you know, And what is it? A bunch of maybes
equals it? Probably, Yeah. So that's why we were so

(24:13):
successful because we had we had the Bfroro database, We
had Moneymaker, and we had Bobo and I with a
lot of Woods experience, and I knew a bunch of
witnesses as well, and Bobo knew him. Boba doesn't really
keep it. I don't think you really keep a database
per se. But you know a lot more people than
I ever will in my entire life cumulative.

Speaker 3 (24:31):
You know what I gotta say about my Maker was
on the pilot, we had no luck. In the last
Prince of Wales island of Shoot in the pilot. On
the final butt Maker just goes, we're going up here,
and he pulled up the map and he how did
jourch you this map? And looking at Google Earth, But
we're going there. We went up there and sure enough,
And that's one of the things that really got the
show kind of pumped. When we got the rock explodion.

(24:53):
It sounded like it took two rocks and just smashed
them together behind us, thinking it sounded like a sledgehammer,
like a giant sledgehammer hitting another rock and it exploding
like and you can hear the chunks of rock flying
through the brush and it was literally like thirty feet
behind us, forty feet behind us, something like that. Fifty
feet no more than fifty feet. Roder, I want some
of hit radeos.

Speaker 2 (25:11):
On the other it is Aaron Rider. A lot of
people might know Aaron Ryder from other TV shows that
she's done, but she was a producer on her pilot.

Speaker 3 (25:18):
So yeah, yeah, and so it was it was shocking.
It was so loud and so violent and so sudden
and the quiet still dark night, and so that kind
of went a long way and getting everyone pumped up
on the show before it even air, and I was
thanks to money Maker.

Speaker 2 (25:34):
It was Matt, and also the stubbornness of Matt and
you you, I want to take away the glory of
your stubbornness as well, because it really changed everything for
the show. Because again, when we're filming the pilot, the
producers were making the decision. And these producers don't know
anything about bigfoot I mean, I mean they don't. Some
of them were in their twenties and they think they
know everything, because that's what it's like being a twenty

(25:55):
three year old person who's given the who granted the
the title of produce sir. When that's what all you
want to do for your life, of course you're gonna
be kind of full of yourself and think you know
what's up, but you don't. And and these producers were
making decisions about where we're going to go bigfooting based
on remember that one dude, I remember his name, but
he said that it's going to look great when you
guys walk across that log. So really, that's what you

(26:17):
think we're doing. That's what you think we're doing here polistic. Yeah,
it's insane, insane, And we were we had nothing going on.
We had nothing basically except for a lot of pretty
shots and b rolls and a few witnesses. And I
remember we we went in there before the last night
investigation we were scheduled to go out that night. We
went over to the cabin where the owners of the

(26:39):
production company and you know, the head producers were all staying,
and we went in there and said, dude, we're not
getting anything, and it's because you're choosing the spots. You're
not letting the bigfooters do what we do. We do this,
you don't. You don't know what you're talking about, and
we're going to fail unless you give us a little
bit more control here. And they were not happy with

(27:00):
us at all anyway, because of butting heads with us
all week long, and we're not getting anything, and they
knew that we're all failing, and we just basically said, dude,
you're holding us back. You are the reason this is failing.
You need to let us do some bigfoot stuff or
we're not going to get anything. And they at that
point were so aggravated and frustrated with us, they basically said, okay,

(27:21):
you have three hours go, and they let us loose
and we hauled ass. You remember that in that old
suv thing that we had. Yeah, and we hauled ass
up the mountains just trying to find. Okay, the only
way we're going to get anything is by vocalizing. We
need to find a spot that we can yell the
furthest and get something in return, because we have three

(27:42):
hours to scout a spot and find a sasquatch before
we go out and film for the final night investigation
on a pilot that will either make or break the
show period. And we did, and Matt says, this is
where we need to go, and we drove that road.
We found the best spots we can to vocalize, and
long and short of it is, we got them. We
got them that night, and only because the production justment

(28:07):
a brief moment of unexplainable wisdom, because I don't have
a lot of faith in production in general. They let
us do what we do. You know, to me, it's
just such a no brainer that, like, you know, like
somebody is trying to tell you how to fix your car,
but they've never held a wrench. You're going to talk
to the mechanic, right, Let the mechanic do what they do.

(28:28):
Let the bigfooters do what they do, and they did
and we won on that one, and that was basically
the struggle for the next season or two. You know,
everybody knows that we've had struggles on finding big Foot,
particularly first season, but the production found that the more
they let us do what we do, the more successful
the show was, you know, and the body you know,
we didn't get them all the time. To get back

(28:49):
to Laura's question, we didn't get them all the time,
but we bat at about a fifty to fifty and
for Bigfoot, that's amazing. And at the end of the day,
it's only because the production finally tried trust us and
we delivered. At the end of the day, we delivered
because they realized that we do this all the time,
and the people who live in la who don't have

(29:11):
a lot of life experience, who don't even think Bigfoot
is real, maybe they should not be the ones to
choose where we go look for these animals.

Speaker 3 (29:19):
She paid they weren't recording that, because that was what
I saw to day. Really freaked out, like I mean,
she was, I mean we all were like, just oh, well,
I say she was scared, but she was. We were
all just so startled. Just you heard it too, I
mean everyone you had to have heard it. But how
far were you from it when it did that?

Speaker 2 (29:34):
Oh? I don't remember. I think I was on the
road below you or something about maybe quarter mile or
a couplet least a couple hundred yards, I don't remember.
But yeah, by any way, that's the answer for that one, Laura. Yeah,
we didn't get them all the time, but we did
do pretty well with it. I mean, I think for
Bigfoot we did excellent.

Speaker 4 (29:50):
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and
Bobo will be right back after these messages.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
At that point particularly, we didn't know what kind of
reality show this is going to be, Like, are they
going to put this against each other? It is this
gonna be like Real Housewives or something where we're just
all monsters to another, you know. But so we weren't.
I remember, I was very conscious and we spoke about
it as a group to not give them stuff that
they could use against us like that, you know, And
then later on we eventually trusted them we can be

(30:22):
more ourselves. And you can see that if you watch
the episodes from season one to season eight or nine
or whatever however they designate those things. So it's all
made up anyway, as far as what seasons go, that
doesn't really make sense. But from the beginning to the
end of the show, you see that, like, oh, the
real personalities are coming through, you know, later on in
the seasons, whereas the first season or two were much

(30:42):
more reserved and stuff. But there's one thing I wanted
to address in this question.

Speaker 3 (30:47):
Where was it?

Speaker 2 (30:48):
So it was any of that played up for the camera,
And that kind of goes back to this thing where
we didn't want to give them anything they could use
against us, right, and that was us not trusting them
for you know, for right. Wrong doesn't really matter at
this point. But I remember being out and hearing coyotes
and I go, okay, coyotes like that, and one of
our producers, Heather was her name. Heather said of me,

(31:11):
say that's all you got. I said, well, yeah, it's
just coyotes. Like I'm not gonna get excited about coyotes
or anything like that. I don't want the editors to
make it look like I'm a big so yeah. But
but but Cliff and she put it in a way
that I finally understood what they needed, you know, And
she says, okay, Cliff, check this out. You're a teacher, right,
You're doing a lesson on some geology lesson like volcanism

(31:32):
or something on volcanoes. And you do that, you know
that that thing that the kitchen chemistry thing where you
mixed together baking soda and vinegar and it bubbles up
and you can tint it red and make a volcano
sort of thing that we've all seen that in elementary
school sort of settings. Right, she says, if you're doing
that in your classroom and you're and you're showing your children,
and you've been doing this lesson for five or eight
years in a row, and you have a new crop

(31:54):
of fifth graders or whatever in there, and you're showing
that lesson to the students, are you going to go, yep,
there it is. You like that, guys, Or are you
going to go, oh my gosh, look at this, this
is amazing blah blah blah blah blah blah and get
all fired up about it and then talk about it.
And I said, well, obviously I would do that because
my students are important to me. He says, that's right, Cliff,
And now you don't have a class of thirty. You

(32:16):
have a class of about a million and a half
people every single week. You owe it to them to
be more enthusiastic about it, and don't worry about what
the editors are going to do. Just be you just
go big. Just treat this like you're teaching students, because
you are, and some student quote unquote out there is
going to be is going to catch what you have

(32:36):
man contagiously speaking, you know, like they're going to be
enthusiastic too about the subject, but not if you do
it like this. Yeah, so what it's coyotes. Get excited
about hearing coyotes. There's nothing wrong with that. You're not lying,
You're you know, you can be excited about hearing coyotes.

Speaker 3 (32:55):
We know if the codsrom is the food around.

Speaker 2 (32:58):
Right, right. But I was so concerned about them throwing
us under the bus that I wasn't given it that,
you know, so later on it hadn't really changed it
for me, and I went, oh, yeah, that makes sense
to me. I am I am doing a disservice to
the to the audience by not getting enthusiastic about coyotes,
you know, So that changed everything for me, and it
just made a lot more sense to me. And I

(33:19):
think probably I think we had a better show because
little lessons like that about how to make good TV
and still be true to the subject or.

Speaker 3 (33:29):
Make mediocre TV. PA's true to the subjects.

Speaker 2 (33:31):
I don't know. I look back now. I think it's
pretty I think it's an okay show, man. I think
it's pretty okay.

Speaker 3 (33:36):
Yea.

Speaker 2 (33:36):
It makes me laugh now because it doesn't even seem
like me in the show, and it's a lot funnier
than I remember it too. Holy crap. I haven't seen
an episode for probably a year or a year and
a half, but I mean I remember just laughing, like, man,
we have some really funny jokes in there, man, super
funny stuff, considering none of it was written. It is
all just improvised.

Speaker 3 (33:53):
Yeah, you got another one here from Connor Klein. Hey,
I'm a long time listener of the podcast. I listen
to you guys while I weld. My question is what
would be the best way to manage your property with
Bigfoot in mind? Thank you for all you guys, do.

Speaker 2 (34:08):
Well, do well, d weld see I only have one
flavored joke awesome. Oh by the way, and that's an
inside joke because moneymaker he would very often go welly
welly well you know, and and so it was a
it was a joke on the anybody who knows Matt.

Speaker 3 (34:25):
Cocker Orange, well do you well, d Weld, Yeah, that's
really good. Sorry you got it from Cockerk Orange? Well
well welly so yeah, I think about that all the time.
I think one thing you can start with is make
it count of a semi have a junk yard, so
you have like old dilapidated boats, a couple of uninhabitable trailers.

Speaker 2 (34:47):
Is that what you were doing by leaving your trailer
on my property?

Speaker 3 (34:53):
Good one? Yeah? How many times Dold we go to
someplace like that and it's like small junk yards. It
had a lot of activity. But first off, you want
to be in a good squatch stone and bit in
fruit trees and things that will attract deer and and
that sort of thing. So it's not straight on having
as many food sources as you can.

Speaker 2 (35:12):
Yeah, I think food and animals. Yeah, that's it, Like
food for you and the animals as well as live
animals is a big thing. But of course, you know
when you look at the property up there in Washington,
our buddy up there. They've got pretty much none of that.
They have like fruit trees, but they basically had. Oh
and if you can get a property at the end
of a road, the last one on the road would

(35:34):
be fantastic. Pushed up against some sort of public land
would be amazing. So food, food and live animals to
show that other animals are cool there, and stuff, and
maybe as a food source. And you got to be
okay with like, you know, losing some losing a cat
every once in a while or something, but that that
would help a lot. I think another good thing is
be predictable. I think you would be eventually predictable anyway.

(35:58):
You know, if you have a routine, they pick up
on that pretty quick. And I think that having a
routine that's not really cultivating a property necessarily or managing
a property, but that's something you can do with your
own life, is just have realize your routine, because we
all have one, we just don't think about it so much.
Realize your own routine and kind of take notes on it,
and then every once in a while break it to

(36:19):
see if they're cruising around, because they don't expect you
to be in a certain area yeah, and other than that,
I mean, I don't know. I mean, I have some
plans for my property. I've got about twenty twenty three
acres out here on the slopes of mountain Hood here
and then the foothills, and I haven't done a lot
to my property to cultivate it for sasquatches yet, because well,
part of the reason is anything you do for sasquatches,

(36:41):
bears are going to become an issue. You know, essentially,
you know you're gonna have a lot of bears around.
And I don't think my wife really wants bears around
very much because I'm gone a lot. But I do
have some ideas about planning some fruit trees on the
upper property. We've got a couple of springs up there
that would probably keep the fruit trees watered efficiently, So
I'd like to put some food sources up there, because

(37:02):
we don't get bears down where I am necessarily, but
on the top of the property or underneath this, underneath
the outbuilding, we get a lot of bear movement all
throughout there. It's because we have a blm land at
the end of the road here and there's a lot
of bears out there. But I have some ideas about
putting some food items up on top and not not
baiting for bears. I'm not hunting or anything like that,
but I'm planning some apple trees or maybe a pear

(37:23):
tree or something out there in the brush if I
can find a sunny enough spot for it.

Speaker 3 (37:29):
Of course, put a little feed plot out, like just
like twenty stalks of corn, you know, like even that
would well.

Speaker 2 (37:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. I just this past week I
put out I had maybe about ten or fifteen gallons
worth of sweet feed. So I just put a pile
of that upstairs, just to put it out there, just
to see what happens that kind of thing. And I
think also putting food Like last year, I went crabbing.

(37:57):
At some point we limited out on crabs and came back,
and once we ate them, I put all the shells
in a big pile up there. And I try to
put the food stuffs in the same area every single time,
so again, be predictable with what you're doing, you know.
And I've had sasquatch stuff happen up there. This is
up at the top campsite. I think you've been up there, Bobo,

(38:18):
but above the top camp site. There's you know, twenty no,
not realistically, about four or five six acres of undeveloped
land that no one's ever done anything with. I don't
own it. It belongs to the people who live further
up the hill from me, but they've never been down there.
There's no roads down there, there are no trails down there.
It's just wild land essentially, and I think that's where

(38:38):
a lot of the animals moving. I've gotten knocks out
of that area before, so yeah, it just kind of
make a big show. They go up there, put the
food down, and then leave the area. Whenever. Most of
the time when I'm up there, they can hear me
coming because I'm righting in the side by side or
the tractor or something like that. So those are ideas
for Connor.

Speaker 3 (38:54):
Yeah, anything we missed through it.

Speaker 1 (38:57):
No, I think that's a pretty good overview. I always
wondered because, yeah, a lot of those long term or
repeat visit sites do seem like really junkie and I
always thought maybe they just somehow gravitate to places that
a not only provide a lot of hiding places and
things to be obstructed by, but I think the lifestyle
of the people there in a really manicured place would

(39:19):
show that the residents are fairly vigilant. So not only
are they removing all the obstructions and things to hide behind,
but they'd kind of always be outside doing some kind
of maintenance and paying a lot of attention, and that
would just put them off too. So yeah, the things
you see in common across all those places, not only
it's like where they're situated in terms of the environmental context,
but yeah, they tend to be pretty neglected looking.

Speaker 2 (39:42):
And if you're really interested in developing a property and
knowing what to look for and stuff, I would recommend
reading Tom Powell's book The Locals. He was really amongst
the first people to really delve into this whole habituation thing.
And of course I don't know Tom has gone much
much further. He thinks sees thing live underground and inside
the hollow earth, and there's alien connections and all sorts

(40:04):
of paranormal stuff that I don't agree with, but I
love Tom. And back in the early days when he
was transitioning over to the paranormal ideas that he now
holds deer, he was still kind of pretty flesh and
blood and he was looking into these properties that had
sasquatches giving repeat visits, and he had a lot of
things to say about it that I thought were are

(40:25):
still to this day very very useful for things to
think about. So check out Tom Powell's book The Locals
and see what he has to say about some of
these properties that he was doing work on. And to
Tom's credit, you know, Tom was back in he was
in the bfr O at the time and as actually
writing the book The Locals that made him leave the

(40:45):
BFRO at some point, and he did a camera trap
project on one of these properties and sure enough got
a picture. So and that picture is in the North
American Bigfoot Center. We have a whole display on that
because it's one of these things that almost nobody knows about,
but but it actually happened, and he got two frames
of a video of one of these things walking past

(41:07):
a camera. It's not very good, don't get your hopes
up or anything, but it is a silhouette that is
definitely big foot shaped in front of some very archaic
nowadays archaic technology. Back then, it was cutting edge, and
I think it was Richard Hucklebridge that kicked down the
money to fund this project. And nowadays, like the technology

(41:28):
is like laughable nowadays, but back then it was cutting edge.
It's like either two thousand or two thousand and one.
But yeah, Tom Powell's book The Locals and his work
up there and what they call the Chehalis Project is
just fantastic, just really really good stuff and even to
this day it has a lot of value. So go
check that out if you can read, read read books.

Speaker 4 (41:50):
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bogo.
We'll be right back after these messages.

Speaker 3 (42:02):
I guess you're can move on to the next one.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
Well, this question, which will probably be the last question
for this episode here, comes from Marty Campbell. Enjoy the show.
I myself am a complete non believer in any claims
of Bigfoot, but still enjoy listening for entertainment. If there
was some kind of evidence to show the lack of
existence of Bigfoot, what would that evidence be to convince you?

(42:25):
And what would you do to find that out? I
understand you can't prove a negative. This is more of
a fun thought experiment.

Speaker 1 (42:32):
Thanks party, you idiot. Well, nobody's perfect, right, No. I
really love the fact that people who are non believers listen.
I think that's great and that they find value in it,
whether it's just entertainment or if they're learning, you know,
tangential things about other animals or wildlife or science in general.
You know, from my perspective, first of all, you'd have

(42:53):
to demonstrate what animal out there makes certain sounds, especially
the big moaning howls, because just from personal experience, I've
heard that eleven times all across North America. Many people
have gotten recordings of that. It's been analyzed by a
number of bioacoustics experts who basically unanimously agree that it's
not synthetic, it's not mechanical, and it's not man made,

(43:15):
and it doesn't correspond with any known mammal. So I
think if sasquatches did not exist, but you could demonstrate
that bears in very specific circumstances, just as an example,
produce that sound that might be compelling. You know, you'd
have to have some alternative for a lot of these things.
And if there is no such thing in the objective environment,

(43:37):
then it only exists within the human mind. Then I
think you would have to set up a situation whereby
you could reliably induce phenomenologically authentic observations or encounters with
sasquatches under some kind of like laboratory conditions, And you'd
have to figure out what it is in the environment
that is triggering these authentic experiences in people, because they

(43:58):
don't have them in their homes or at the gym,
or at the restaurant or at the grocery store, or
in their cars, you know, while they're in the city
or in urban areas, et cetera. And so I think
it would take a lot to prove that, like, no,
this is solely restricted to the human mind, and we
can replicate it, and all these very real stimuli in

(44:20):
the environment that people hear we can definitively attribute to
other mammals, because if you couldn't, well, it's like, well,
now you need a new cryptid. What other animal is
producing that sound that we don't know about, you know
what I mean?

Speaker 2 (44:33):
Yeah, And the most likely culprit would be the one
that people actually claim to see in those areas instead
of some new fantastical sort of thing that would be
kind of pulled out of your butt.

Speaker 1 (44:42):
I guess you know, oh, your preacher to the choir.
But I'm go with the thought experiment. What would it take?

Speaker 2 (44:47):
Oh, no, I get it. Yeah, what a take? I
mean that, you know. I mean the BA has gotten
better looks at sasquatches than I have, you know. I
mean I've seen one, maybe two, and neither sighting was great.
One it is through a thermal image, or the other
one is at a great distance, if that's what I
saw it all. But the thing I keep coming back to,
at least lately, is that I go out to the

(45:08):
woods one to three days a week, and I'm going
to areas where oftentimes I don't even know I'm going
to go. They're at that particular location. I don't even
know I'm going there. No one else does. My wife
doesn't know where I am. The guys at the shop,
my employees and friends don't know where I am going.
No one knows because I don't even know when I
set out, and I kind of make up my mind
on the drive out there, Oh I'm going to go

(45:30):
try that road. But yet I find occasionally I find
footprints out there, and they're big. They're like fourteen inches.
There's a seventeen inch one that I've seen more than
once now in one of my areas. And these are
these are footprints and not just individual footprints either, like
the strange marks on the ground. Are these are trackways,

(45:52):
you know, with with multiple footprints in them, spaced evenly
and showing details and stuff. And that to me is
pretty compelling. That, to me is pretty compelling that I'm
on the right track here. So what would it take?
Like I can write off my sightings because they're not
that good, you know, but the footprint stuff, that would

(46:14):
be hard for me to do so, And again, no
one knows I'm going there. And if there's something about
hoaxing that I know about is that hoaxers generally want
their stuff to be found. They put in obvious places
they would call them in, you know, to to various people.
I've been hoaxed that way before. People don't generally hoax
and then hope that somebody runs across them in these
places that there's no reason to walk into. Right, So

(46:37):
I guess someone would have to show me how they're
how they're doing this, or that I am so gullible
that and such a lousy tracker that I would think
anything is a footprint even if it's not, which is
probably that's probably much easier to prove actually than someone's
out there hoaxing it. You know, I'm much more open

(46:58):
to me being wrong, being mistaken than I am that
somebody is out there hoaxing me in places that I
don't even know I'm going to.

Speaker 3 (47:07):
I mean, that'd be great if it's if I say, oh,
these these record you guys assume have been big for
those years, are not there this It's like the tre
Hala scream that Tom. Yeah, Steberg ended up filming the
actual tiotie, making the sound like he got an on
camera coming out of his mouth.

Speaker 2 (47:24):
So I was like, I don't think he filmed it.
I think he just saw it and he was going
to try to film it to be fair though whatever
that's worth, okay, But yeah, he saw it with his
own eyes. And as far as I'm concerned, as Tom
Steinberg says something like that he observed, you can take
that to the bank.

Speaker 3 (47:38):
He's probably the most cautious researcher I know for making
statements on want something in there isn't.

Speaker 1 (47:44):
Like I said, I think first you'd have to eliminate
the authentic experiences and then move on to Okay, well,
once we eliminate that, now we have to deal with
the other sounds, But when it comes to the authentic experiences.
You know, I've always been very open and like, I've
never had a clear sighting, I've not had a visual
And so many people, you know, skeptics that are good

(48:06):
friends of mine, will say like, well, isn't that enough
proof for you that it can't be a biological animal.
I'm like, well, then the alternative is that it's psychological,
and I've equally not experienced that, and according to many skeptics,
it's a wish fulfillment. Oh, people see it because they
want to see it. It's like, well, I want to
see it worse than just about anyone on the planet.
And so if we're going to say that because I've

(48:29):
not experienced it, it doesn't exist, then there's your grounds
right there for saying that the psychological sasquatch doesn't exist,
because well, why haven't I seen fifty of them? By now?
Why did John Green never see one? You know, there's
a whole list of people who devoted their lives and
a lot of field time to trying to see one
that never had a clear visual And so you know,
you can't have it both ways versus you know, there's

(48:51):
there's plenty of animals that do exist that I've not
seen with my own eyes in the wild, like wolverines
for example. You know, not that I've spent a tremendous
amount of time wolverine country, but I have spent some
and I've never seen a wolverine in the wild. Now, yes,
there's footage and we all know they exist, But just
as an example from personal experience, I would never look
at that and go, well, you know, I ain't buying

(49:13):
it until i'd see it for myself. That'd be pretty silly.
But if we're going for this, you know, biological hypothesis
versus or as opposed to a psychological hypothesis, then well
then why am I not experiencing that?

Speaker 2 (49:27):
Yeah, that's the whole premise of your book, you know,
from cover to cover, that's the premise. Psychological or biological.
Let's take a look and weigh the evidence.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
Yeah, and spoiler alert, there's a lot of both. I
think that happens because even if the biological is born out,
there's certainly psychological components. But in terms of this uni
dimensional analysis that the sasquatch doesn't exist, therefore, any authentic
experience has to just be a wish fulfillment or you know,
a delusion. It's like, okay, fair enough, then I'm still

(49:56):
waiting for that to happen to me. I guess I
must not have that component, you know, I'm not arrogant
enough to think that I would be immune to that.
That's what's so funny about a lot of the skeptical arguments.
It's like, well, you know, people have false memories, and
so you can genuinely believe you saw an animal that
was never there. It's like, oh, really, how many of
the animals that you've seen in your life do you
assume actually weren't there? Or do you think that just

(50:18):
everyone else is subject to false memories but not you?
You know, what do you mean? It's like, okay, well
you've seen deer when you're driving. I want you to
think back and then as sign what percentage of those
deer were not actually there? Well, it doesn't happen to me,
I mean for other people. It's like, of course that's
what you mean. Or you know, memories are fallible, you
can't rely on memory at all. Okay, well, how many

(50:41):
of your memories of your life experiences do you assume
to be entirely fictitious. Probably zero. You know, there's things
you might remember better than others. You might admit to yourself, well,
I don't really remember it all that well. But it
is funny to see people constantly making these broad generalizations
about humankind, but those never apply to them. And so

(51:02):
I'm not going to say it couldn't happen to me.
I just find it interesting that of all the years
and the thousands of days and nights and many thousands
of hours I've spent actively looking for a sasquatch and
hoping and wishing and you know, begging the universe, praying
whatever you want to call it, to see one, I haven't.

(51:22):
And so I don't necessarily buy that like, oh yeah,
you know, people just see what they want to see. Sorry,
it ain't that easy.

Speaker 3 (51:30):
Yeah, yes, I mean I haven't had a great study,
Like I haven't had like a in the headlights up
close or daylight where I got to see it see it,
like see it move and walk and you know, see
its face, you know, clearly, like where you get to
look at the eye or something like that. You know,
it's like I'm dying for like a good detailed sighting.

Speaker 1 (51:50):
Absolutely we're in the same boat there, so.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
We keep on going. Well, you know, speaking of being wrong.
I know we're kind of coming to the end of this,
this this dance for this week. But you know, remember
last week or last time I was, I commented that
that I might have misspoken, and I want what I
wanted to say was that bonobos are more closely related
than chimpanzees. Remember that whole that whole thing that we
went through, Matt, Yeah, you weren't there, but that's one

(52:15):
of these examples of memories, right, But maybe did you
listen to the podcast, Bobo, Yeah, I heard it. Okay,
Well it turns out I was wrong and I was
corrected once again. So talk about being wrong, and I'll
say it again. If you're talking about bigfoot for a
living like we do, you're probably going to say some
incorrect things sometimes. So again, a good friend, doctor Hogan Cheryl,

(52:35):
who was a guest on our podcast back in the day,
I got a text from him a few days ago
saying that is it is incorrect. Although there is a
there's a small faction of primatologists that advocate for that
based on Bonobo's peaceful demeanor rather peaceful demeanor compared to chimpanzees.

(52:56):
But what he told me was that the last common
ancest sure between Bonobo's and chimpanzees was about three and
three or four million years ago, three and a half
million years ago, whereas the last common ancestor between humans
and chimpanzees was about six six and a half million
years ago. So therefore we are equally close closely related

(53:19):
to Bonobo's and chimpanzees because their common ancestor is much
more recent, about half the distance back than the humans
and chimpanzees' last common ancestor. So once again I sit
here corrected. So thank you very much for correcting me.
And of course everybody is willing, or everybody is. I'm
willing to listen to anybody who wants to correct me.
And I always appreciate supporting research papers and all that

(53:43):
sort of stuff, because I am a learner about bigfoot
and primatology and paleo anthropology and everything like that. Certainly
not an expert. I'm just a learner like everybody else.
So keep it coming, guys, appreciate it. Thanks doctor V.

Speaker 3 (53:55):
Sherup. I'm gonna getting more into the the last couple
of years, getting more into the pale anthropology by you
and Matt obviously are have delved into it deep for
a long time. But there's a lot of stuff. I mean,
we'll get to it the next time about the articles,
but I can't wait to talk about that. I found
that pretty fascinating.

Speaker 2 (54:13):
It's I think it's it's not mandatory, but it might
as well be mandatory. Like if you really take the
bigfoot subject seriously and you want to be a student
of the bigfoot subject, paleoanthropology is kind of required reading
because these things fit into our family tree somewhere and
where that is, I don't know, no one does, but

(54:35):
we can learn that. It's kind of like, you know,
we study the ape species to learn more about ourselves
essentially at the end of the day. Yeah, yeah, we
want to learn about o ring oftans, we want to
learn about guerrillas. But at the same time, they hold
a mirror up to our own species in a lot
of different ways, and we should be studying human evolution
for the exact same reason. The fact that like uh

(54:57):
sasquatch hands are are are more similar to like Ostralla
pithesene hands than they are to gorilla hands. That tells
us something, because anatomy reflects behavior, you know, very directly
in a lot of ways. And I think that everyone
who is a serious student of the sasquatch subject should
probably look into or at least dabble in paleoanthropology. I

(55:21):
think you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't. I've
started reading Debbie argues book Little Species, Big Mystery. I
think that's a name of it. It's upstairs. I don't
have the cover in front of you, but I'm pretty
sure that's the title of it. And she is a
pale anthropologist I believe, who is looking into the Homo
floresiensis subject. And she's also an advocate of them being

(55:42):
a more archaic species than say Homorectus, which is a
very commonly thrown around, you know, diagnosis of them, I guess.
But just last night, in the very very first chapter,
that's all I've gotten through so far, she was talking
about how if you look at the end side of
the cranium, you can see signs of where arteries attached

(56:05):
and in like feed blood to the brain, and therefore
you can kind of figure out what part of the
brains are. The brain is getting more you know, more
more advanced, more developed, and then that that gives some
sort of reflection or some sort of hint as to
the cognitive ability of the species. And it's like, well, well,
mind blowing, mind blowing stuff, right, So yeah, again, everybody

(56:26):
should be looking into something like this. And if I may,
you know, one of the things that really turned me
on to the palaeo anthropology thing that I really really
enjoyed are a number of books by Ian Tattersall. So
if you check out Ian Ian Tattersall stuff. I think
he's the guy in charge of the human evolution stuff
at the Museum in New York and the Naturalizer Museum

(56:50):
in New York, and several of his books like Masters
of the Planet was I think with the first one
I read and then I read another one, what is
it stretching my memory here.

Speaker 1 (57:00):
The rickety Cossack.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
Yeah, yeah, the case of the Rickety Cossack, I think
is what it was. The books are very very it's
kind of like a chronological walkthrough of major paleoanthropological discoveries
and consequences through through all the time. Basically because you know,
back in I think the first hominin fossil that was

(57:23):
discovered that people started taken seriously was like in the
mid eighteen hundreds, and it was a Neanderthal Neanderthal cranium
if I remember, right, and that's where people went like
what humans evolved too, you know, and like what we
just weren't here all the time like this? You know,
it's like, no, of course not, why would we were
subject to all the natural forces that all the other
animals are. And so he kind of walks us through
from that point on to the present and the mistakes

(57:46):
that were made, the the successes. They're just fantastic books.
So Ian Tattersall is I highly recommend reading his stuff.
There's a lot of fun to read and makes it very,
very digestible for the public.

Speaker 3 (58:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
I really want to read Debbie Argue's book. And I
didn't know that she took the heterodox view, the sort
of contrarian view, but given her surname and my predilection
for nominal determinism, I guess I should have expected that.

Speaker 3 (58:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
Yeah, doctor Meldrim suggests that I read that book, and
so far I'm loving it. Well, should we close this
one down and go to the member section.

Speaker 1 (58:21):
There's a few more member questions that came in since
you and I recorded the members Q and A, so
I'm sure there's some here that would be great for
the Bobes. And then for those of you who are
listening to this main podcast that are members. I did
receive an anonymous tip related to the Pigeons that I'm
going to ask Bobo about. And so if you're not

(58:41):
a member and you want to learn about the Pigeons,
which trust me you very much, do, you should consider
becoming a member.

Speaker 2 (58:47):
Yeah, of course, the Pigeons is the gang that Bobo
was involved in.

Speaker 3 (58:50):
Yeah, you should read that the intro whatever on the
Patreon page. You should put that out to the public. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
I mean, obviously on the member episode, Cliff and I
learned great deal about Bobo. But then when I was
posting the announcement of the episode in this particular aspect
of Bobo's life, I spent a lot of time sitting
down and writing an overview of what we had learned.
But this is spoiler free, so you're gonna hear a
lot of things if you've become a member.

Speaker 3 (59:17):
But I wrote the.

Speaker 1 (59:19):
Pigeons were a blight upon the once pristine streets of
Manhattan Beach and represented the gross degeneration of the American
middle class. This preposterous syndicate of pseudo delinquent's most menacing
act was the theft of ironing boards, no doubt a
symbol of their disdain for decency and order. They could
often be found roosting in trees and cooing like an
unholy communion of Avian madmen. Their vocalizations represented what one

(59:43):
might generously describe as territorial dispute calls for people with
an abundance of leisure time. Their initiation rights were as
insipid as their penchant for laundry oriented larceny. New recruits,
referred to as eggs, a cynical mockery of natural order,
were subjected to the demeaning ritual of the daw pile.
Only after enduring this embarrassment were neophytes permitted to hatch

(01:00:04):
into full pigeons, an evolution that must have seemed more
significant to them than to any of the unfortunate onlookers
who witnessed it. They're so called havoc, which they believe
to be the height of subversive genius, was undoubtedly intended
to ruffle the collective plumage of the Southern Californian suburban elite,
a testament to the failure of society to instill any
sense of dignity or purpose in its youth. In hindsight,

(01:00:27):
the Pigeons will be remembered as both a towering monument
to the audacity of the human spirit and as an
instantiation of the conceptual confluence of privilege and boredom.

Speaker 3 (01:00:37):
That's perfect.

Speaker 2 (01:00:38):
That was amazing. It was amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
But so yeah, side to become a member if you
want to hear the first hand account of the rise
and rain of the pigeons.

Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
Yeah, so, go to the website big for to be
on podcast, hit podcast, hit that membership button and they'll
tell you everything you need to know.

Speaker 3 (01:00:53):
All right, folks, it's another episode of wrapped up here,
and thanks to Matt for joining us and giving some
good insights, and thank you to the listeners, and thank
you to our Patreon family that we're going to go
join now. You're missing out if you're not going to
be there. But until next week, y'all keep it squatchy.

Speaker 4 (01:01:13):
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Bigfoot and Beyond.
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(01:01:33):
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