Ep. 238 - Multiple Encounters in Michigan!

(00:02):
Big Food and Beyond with Cliff andBobo. These guys are your favorites,
so like say subscribe and raid itfive stock and greatest con. Yes today
and listening a watching lim always keepits watching. And now you're hosts Cliff

(00:28):
Berrickman and James Bubo Fay. HelloCliff, Hello Bobo. How are you
doing today, sir? Pretty good? Pretty good? What's happening? Just
uh, I don't know, workand stuff and you know, I just
got back in town from Kentucky.I was at a cryptid con. Oh
yeah, great event. I reallyenjoyed myself. A lot of good people
out there. I saw Tom Shay. Tom Shay is of course a national

(00:51):
treasure in every single way international prettymuch pretty much. Yeah. He passed
on a couple of casts for theNABC. One is a gift to the
NABC, which is a fantastic castfrom Trimble County in twenty eighteen. The
cast is from an individual named Goliaththat we've been tracking over the last few
years. There's some dramaticallypics on itthat maybe came from the Sasquatch, maybe

(01:11):
came from introduction or being tainted somehow, you know, like maybe Tom touched
the foot print before his cast.Not really sure. I actually I'm working
with a forensic expert who is anexpert in dramaticlyphics and ballistics of all things,
and he has some questions about thecast. So I was talking to
Tom about that, and of courseTom has nothing to hide. He wants

(01:33):
everybody to look at these things witha really close eye and just get to
the bottom of everything, get tothe truth of all this. So I
was talking to Tom about this castand about the concerns this one gentleman had.
He's a police officer in Georgia.And Tom says, well, I'll
tell you what, I'll just giveyou the cast for the NABC. I'll
just donate the cast to you andthen you can make a higher quality mold
than what you have and then sendit off to him. Which is really

(01:53):
a fantastic thing and so generous andreally speaks volumes to Tom Shay's character that
he he just wants qualified people toclosely examine the evidence and get to the
truth. So I got that oneback at home, and also while while
he was bringing a cast, Ispecifically asked him, you know, now,
there are two fantastic handprints that Tomcast in twenty sixteen, not that

(02:16):
real big one that you got tohold in person. But there's these two
other ones, right, and it'sthe same hand that the fingers are curled
in one and protruding to the ground, and the other well, apparently there
were there was a footprint associated withit. Tom sent me a photograph of
the two hand casts and a footprint. I go, Tom, there's a
footprint. He goes, yeah,I never told you that. I said,

(02:38):
no, he never told me that. So well, hey, and
so like a year goes by oreight months go by, and I figured
out, I'm going to see Tomat Cryptidcon and I'm revamping my presentations for
this coming season. I think I'mgoing to do something on handprints. I
did something at handprints a number ofyears ago, but so many more have
been uncovered since then, and somuch new information has come out. I
want to revisit that topic for thiscoming season, and you know of conferences.

(03:00):
So anyway, I said, Tom, would you mind lending me that
that footprint because I want to useit and see if there's any correlation hand
size and foot size and all thisother stuff. He goes, oh,
yeah, no problem. So Isee Tom, and he goes, hey,
I got that cast for you,And I unwrapped the bubble wrap and
there's a half cast there. Igo, Tom, this isn't the one
you show me. He goes,oh, no, I couldn't find that

(03:21):
one that I showed you. Butthis was also in the trackway. Huh,
said Tom? There were two?There were two? What else are
you hiding from me? You know, not that he's hiding anything, of
course, but you know what Imean, it's like, oh my god.
So that a really interesting half cast. And then there's still that other
footprint that he's not quite sure whereit is because he's got tubs of these

(03:43):
things, right, He's been collectingthese prints since the eighties. So you
know, I can't hold it againstthem. I'm rather disorganized as well,
you know. Yeah. Anyway,so the Crypto Con was great in that
sort of way, and I don'tknow that that's pretty much it, really,
although I did come home to avery very sick dog. Fortunately,
Yeah, so she's not I mean, she's doing better now, but you
know, I mean she understandably hasseparation anxiety issues and has a lot of

(04:06):
baggage from you know, being tiedto a tree in the woods alone as
a puppy, and then you know, we stumbled upon her and saved her
life basically. You know, soshe's got some baggage, but then she's
used to like Melissa being home whenI'm gone, But this time Melissa came
with me because she later drove outto Pittsburgh after the event to surprise her

(04:28):
mother for her seventieth birthday party.So happy birthday to mom of course out
there. Yeah. So, soshe kind of freaked out while we're gone,
got in the trash ate some stuffand then stopped eating anything. Then
she wasn't pooping and all that otheryou know, dog issues and stuff.
She's slowly rebounding and the stress isgoing away. I'm literally looking at her
right now. So but yeah,things are getting better for her. But

(04:50):
they don't like having a sick dog. You know how that is, Bubbs.
Oh god, yeah, it's becauseyou're like, talk to me,
Talk to me, you know what'sgoing on? Just tell me what's wrong.
Yeah, but that's me, man. What's up with you? Getting
ready for Bart to come up tomorrownight, tomorrow night, Thanksgiving Eve.
Well, he's gonna he's gonna takeoff and then he'll probably won't get here

(05:12):
until Friday morning, and then uh, we're gonna do our annual squatching and
gambling football watching it. We'll beout. We're not gonna go too far
out like, well, we'll haveto keep it close where we can come
in and watch games and be ininternet range. So get his bets in.
Well, very good. I wishyou good luck on both counts,

(05:33):
big footing and gambling. Yeah.Nice. Nice. He's just gonna go
to the local spots basically, Yeah, then we're gonna go. Polly Pizza
has gotta he's got. He livesout out behind like like between Fieldbrook and
Mckinneyville, come out in Mount's onthose those coastal hills like just south of
Trinidad, and I get a lotof reports out of there, and I've

(05:56):
and I should spend more time therebecause it's so close, but I kind
of it's just, uh, there'sthere's house. I mean, there's you
know, there's a couple of thousandpeople live in that valley, and so
I try to stay away from likeanywhere likely it could be like overlap,
like because there's so you can getso far out there around here, you
know, like where there's no housesat all. I try to go to
those places, but there's reports comingconsistently through there. So we're gonna check

(06:20):
that out and see what we canfind. Oh that's cool, you know.
That reminded me of something that's superbig. Aggrig aggravation. By the
way, I was at the museumtoday. It's it's Wednesday tomorrow, Thanksgiving
for the people listening, that's whenwe record these things. So I was
at the museum today for a fewhours or whatever. I only took a
I only worked for a little overa half day because of my dog.
Of course, I want to comeand make sure she wasn't gonna crap all

(06:42):
over the bottom floor of the houselike she did when I was gone.
And then uh, but so beforeI left, I like, well,
oh, there's a message on themachine. I'm just gonna double check this
or erase it if it's old.And it was a woman's voice. I'm
not going to say the name oranything says yeah, my name is so
and so, and uh, Idon't know if this is the number I'm
supposed to call. But I sawsomething and I don't mean it might have

(07:03):
been a bigfoot and I got iton the video on my phone. A
couple of us did, A coupleof my friends, and is this the
number for that? My name isso and so, and you can call
me back my numbers five oh threeclick, and then it hung up.
It hung up, and then ofcourse, you know, I what and
I fumbled back through the incoming calls. You know, on the store phone.

(07:26):
This is the store's phone, andthe number that came in at the
time she called this was yesterday.By the way, the number she came
at the time she called was anumber form like six oh one area code
or something like that. So Icalled back, and then I called Nico
the manager, and said, ohyeah, that came that yesterday. I
called her back to and anyway,that was yesterday. So somebody here in

(07:46):
the Portland area, at least someonewho has a Portland phone number. She
and her friends apparently possibly saw asasquatch. Release think they did, to
the point where they called the BigfootMuseum to tell them about it, and
has video. So so that's makingme pull my eyeballs out. Yeah,
it might have been yesterday, mighthave been the day before. Oh man,

(08:07):
as I rained that hard since Igot home. There's probably prints in
the ground because it's all soft andmuddy and video. But man, such
as the life of a big Footer. It's like, oh, Cliff,
there's no Murphy's Laws, just ablah blah blah up here. There clearly
is Murphy's Law guaranteed guaranteed. Yeah, anybody who says that hasn't been big
footing very long. I think wegot some good stuff caught up today.
Fantastic. Yeah, of course areour guests today. And I may get

(08:31):
the name wrong, Like, it'sjust so funny. I've known of these
people and what seems like forever foreveractually, and I've kind of known them
emailed here and there and stuff,and then lo and behold once a year
so they start wandering into the museumand I'm greeting them and they and I
remember last year it was like,hey, Cliff, I'm so and so,
oh my god, I know youare. And then this year the

(08:52):
other half came in. I said, what, why haven't you been on
our podcast yet? So yeah,I believe the name of the thing and
correct me if I'm wrong. Ofcourse. I think it's the Michigan Recording
Project and the two folks that headedare so deeply involved they might as well
head it are here with This isJim and Stacy Flowers for our old for
like old folks like you and IBobs. That's a name out of the

(09:13):
past, all right, So Jimand Stacy Flowers, welcome to Bigfoot and
Beyond with me and that guy.Thank you nic here, Yeah, thank
you so much for setting aside alittle time. We made this arrangement a
couple of weeks ago. I mean, Stacy was in the museum I think
like last month or two months ago, I don't know, and Jim was
in last year if I remember correctly, although I do have a pretty lastic
sense of time. But how fortuitousto run across y'all, and now to

(09:37):
have you on the podcast and yourperfect guests, because I think that you're
best known for the vocalizations that havebeen recorded off one particular property, although
again I'm wrong about a lot ofstuff, so maybe I'm wrong about that
too. That's right, we've beenon that property for since two thousand and
five. Since two thousand and five, that seems like forever ago. But
how long before that were you bigfooting? Oh? Well, me only

(10:01):
a couple of years. Jim,he was actually eight when he had his
probable sighting and started chasing reports andnewspaper articles and that kind of thing.
Eight years old, So, Jim, I wasn't even where you had a
sighting. Why don't you tell usabout that? To get us going here.

(10:22):
Basically, my grandma lived on theedge of an apple orchard at Athens,
Michigan. One day I was outplaying in the yard, saw a
huge thing walk through just the insidecorner of the field and the orchard there.
It just disappeared. Scared the hellout of me. I ran back

(10:43):
inside and didn't go back out therest of the day, probably about wasn't
A week later, there was anarticle in the newspaper about another bigfoot sighting
had a track find in the area, and I just kind of like,
you know, my I was inmind put two and two together, and
I just started reading everything I couldand finding every newspaper article I could,

(11:07):
and everything just kind of snowball fromthere. So how did you get back
in? This is back in theday. I'm assuming that you know what
you're like. I imagine you're aboutmy age, and I turned fifty three
next week, so I'm assuming thatyou're about my age close. Yeah,
I'm just a little bit older thanyou then. Yeah, yeah, so
this is back back, pre internetand whatnot. So your only real sources
of information were books, which Istill advocate as being the primary source of

(11:30):
information for all of our listeners,even beyond podcasts and television and stuff,
and also newspaper articles. What didyou do? Did you collect them and
put them in a scrap book orsomething, or did you just read them
and take notes or did you justread? What did you do it?
Back then? At the time theyhad a scrap book? I cut them
out and stuck them with tape onan old photograph book that my grandma had
and just kept going from there.Unfortunately, she also thought that with the

(11:54):
interest in Bigfoot, that I wantedeverything from the National Inquirer. So I
had a scrap book full of everythingfrom whoever had the Bigfoot's baby to the
latest flavor of the week from thelocal newspaper, some of the national ones
when they picked up the story.Well that's sweet, though, that's,

(12:15):
however misguided that might be. That'svery very sweet of her, you got
to admit, So, do youstill have this footo? Album. I
don't think I do. My mommay have it somewhere, but my grandma
passed away several years ago when Iwas stationed in the maybe and a lot
of her stuff that was there justkind of disappeared. The house she lived

(12:35):
in and got sold. So eventhe apple orchard is now a small subdivision.
Sure, sure they had they putup a parking lot, so to
speak. Yeah, well, gosh, So so you started around eight Were
you doing field investigations? Man like, did you ride your bike over like,
you know, like a stranger thingsort of thing and I doing a
field or it was just collecting informationat that point at that point, collecting

(12:58):
information. I think I actually aswell as I could investigated the first report,
I was probably about thirteen. Idon't remember the details of it.
It was a local kid who thoughthe saw something in the words too,
so we just kind of like comparednotes and went from there. I don't
even remember his name. It wasso long ago. That's cool. That's
really neat now, Stacy, Yeah, how did you get involved in this

(13:22):
whole subject here? Well, myinterest goes back to when I was eleven
or twelve, way back to themid seventies, when it was all kind
of first blew up. In thefirst place, there was a movie coming
out in the theaters and I can'tremember the name of it, may have
been Sasquatched something or other, butthere was a commercial would come on the
television back in the day when youhad to get up and change the antenna

(13:43):
and the channel on your big consoleTV. And in the commercial it played
this vocalization as long howl. Andthe first time I heard that, it
freaked me out so bad. AndI don't know why. I almost had
like a physical visceral reaction to it, you know. So here's this kid
getting scared of this commercial, andevery time it would come on and have

(14:05):
to get up and change a channelreal quick before that sound would happen.
And from then on, as akid and growing up, Bigfoot was like
my boogeyman. That was the thingI was afraid of in the dark.
It was a thing that freaked meout when the family would go camping,
you know, and I always justfelt like something was out there, but
I never really I kind of Ididn't really lose interest, but there was

(14:26):
nothing to keep my interest for along long time, many years. And
when I first got online. Oneday, I was thinking around just kind
of learning how to use the internetand the computer and all of that,
and I said, Hi, whatif people are still talking about pickfoot?
And I did a search, andgod, you know, when all was
out there, tons of stuff.This is This is in the day when

(14:48):
there were only like discussion forums andindividual websites and things. And I was
shocked by how many people were stilltalking about this and making claims. And
the more I read the it soundedlike there's maybe really something to this.
And before I knew it, Iwas just hoping the subject. And so
I spent a brief time in theBFRO back in two thousand and three,

(15:11):
I believe, and then the groupthat we camp with got together in two
thousand and four, the large groupthat got together that had met quote unquote
met on the Bigfoot forums way backin its early days, and we had
a weekend camping trip, and youknow, people of similar mindsets kind of
split off into different groups and things, and that led to us getting together

(15:35):
and doing our thing, and thenwe started on this property in two thousand
and five. Stay tuned for moreBigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bogo,
we'll be right back after these messages. How did you find the property?

(15:56):
Well, there was a BFO investigatornamed Casey Carnes who Paul Wilson and I
were you had you talked to him? Okay, so just Paul and I
had talked to him each separately onlinea couple of times, and he was
supposed to join us in our originalspot one evening and he was going to
bring out a guy. He said, that got a guy I'm going to

(16:18):
bring out. He's got some stories, he's got some things happening on his
property. I'm going to bring himout with me and you guys can meet
him and talk to him and stuff. So Casey Lauda not coming because his
mother was sick, but this guywith her, I should say, convoluted
instructions and way back on dirt twotracks managed to find us after dark and

(16:40):
the landowner, he came out byhimself, spent the night and we talked
and talked and talked, and heliked us. We liked him, so
he invited us out to the propertyand we went later that summer for the
first time. So it was aBFR report basically, what now? What
was in more? You know,have to tell me everything, of course,
or we don't use your discretion becausethere are a couple people listen to
this. What was in that report? Was it just a siting, was

(17:04):
a track find? Was it ongoingstuff? I mean, what how aware
of the situation were you going intothis? I can answer that one because
I've seen a newspaper article for it. Well, there was a newspaper article.
There were actually two. One datesback to the seventies where basically his
grandmother had a incident where it camethrough, left giant footprints and was picking

(17:30):
pea pods. And I guess thelocal paper came out and kind of investigated
to the best of their ability,but didn't find anything. The other one
was in the uh there was aninstant with several boys. I used to
run a hont how he used torun a hound house, and several boys
had basically saw a bigfoot. Sothe local you know, kids, one

(17:51):
tells the other, the next onetells the next one next week. You
know, all the newspapers out therewith reporters or a reporter from the local
paper doing interview and checking out inthe incident, and that showed up in
the local paper. And I thinkThat's basically what the BVFR or report was
actually entailing when that came out too. But it turns out that Casey and
this guy had known each other yearsbefore. Neither one was familiar with the

(18:15):
other's interest in or background until thisarticle came out in the newspaper. Was
the reporter had promised he wouldn't usehis family's name, and he did.
Anyway, Casey happened to see thepaper and called our guy and said,
hey, guess what, so thatyou know the property being worked in investigated
kind of came out of that too, basically what they call Class C reports.

(18:40):
It wasn't even a direct observation oranything. It was just like,
hey, this is happening in thisgeneral area. Now that the property owner
was he aware of this previous activity? Oh yeah, he's lived on or
near the property. It's family property, but his awareness of these things goes
back to the seventies also, Andwas that because sightings or footprints or weird

(19:00):
things or all of it? Okay, okay, how big of an area
are we talking about? Do youthink? I mean not just the property.
I mean the property could be twoacres and still have a ton of
stuff going on. But how bigit is this green belt or like pocket
of woods that these things are frequenting. Well, some of us been sold
off because we actually bought some ofit six hundred anchors at one point,

(19:26):
maybe just a little bit more.But it's also basically right on the edge
of the Manistee National Forest, withinmy easy walking distance. Now, what
what sort of things do you thinkbefore we get into vocalizations and your individual
experiences, what sort of things doesthis particular property and the locality of where

(19:48):
people are and where you're finding thesethings go on? What sort of things
are here that you think might bedrawing the sasquatches in repeatedly. Well,
it's right on a river, avery windy river. It feeds into the
most major river system I think inthe state pretty much. Yeah, we're
very we're very close to the MuskegonRiver. That would probably be the big

(20:10):
thing. There is a lot offarmland, but to the north and to
the east of where we are specifically, there's just miles and miles and miles
and miles of woods, Okay,and that farmland, what do they grow
on it? Do you know?The most common crop? Is it corn?
Or is it alfalfa or is itcorn alfalfa? Oh, varies because
toy beams. It varies because ofthe when they do it, they rotate

(20:34):
the cross for the nitrogen content,so it's not the same crop every year.
Apparently I'm not a farmer, butI grew up in farm country,
and apparently that also of nitrogen contentand the soil or something. I was
thinking because you said corn and thenalfalfa, of course, and so all
of those things are deer magnets,which is what I was kind of thinking

(20:55):
about, Like what's drawing in theprey species here, and maybe those farms
have something to do. There's alot of fruit trees, naturally wild apple
trees, a lot of berry bushes, blackberries, raspberries, red raspberries,
blueberries, mushrooms. Pretty much thatin the river is a designated trout stream.

(21:19):
So there's a huge bunch of foodthere, plus crayfish if you're if
they're really wanted something that small orhard to eat. So when you first
started investigating the property in its vicinity, what were some of the clues that
you might have gotten, either thingsyou heard or found or saw that kind
of indicated you were on the righttrack. And you found a good area.

(21:40):
Honestly, the first time that I, well, Paul and I went
first, and it was just aday trip and driving in, you know,
you're looking at that north south roadand there's there's houses and there's cabins
and farmland, and I'm thinking,okay, there is no way, but
at least it's a nice day fora drive and walk in the woods.
So I wasn't expecting anything. Andwe really once we got back to the

(22:06):
woods and I saw, you know, the actual layout of the land later
land, it was like, Okay, we've got we've got nice water here,
We've got tons of woods. Iguess it's possible. And it was
I think our first big overnight tripthere that we got our one and only
vocalization of that year, which wasn'tconvincing. You know, I think we

(22:26):
were still leaning towards okay, that'ssomebody messing around with us, and we
kind of were for the first coupleof years, not neces necessarily thinking we
were being hoaxed, but always keepingthat thought in the forefront, just in
case. How far a part ofthe homesteads spread in this area is that
everybody have like five acres or somethingor is it just ridiculously large because you
mentioned six hundred acres a little whileago. Is that the standard? No,

(22:49):
I don't think so. It justdepends. There are some people who
you know, have a house juston like four or five acres. There's
some farms that are hundreds of acres, dairy farms too, cattle and some
of those are big. Yeah.There's also a lot of seasonal cabins that
aren't occupied year round. So foryou know, five months out a year,

(23:15):
nobody is there. Okay, Soyou start going onto this property a
little bit, you hear a vocalization, but nothing you can take to the
bank. It sounds like, butyou've devoted so much of your time to
this one location and it can't justbe convenience. What really turned your head
around and say, wow, weneed to focus all of our efforts here.
What was that the first few years, the first couple of years we

(23:37):
were there, you know, wedidn't hear anything for the rest of that
year. That was two thousand andfive. In two thousand and six we
started hearing them much more regularly,and six and seven it was we could
almost time it to within five minutesor so of about eleven thirty at night,
we'd start hearing these screams from acrossthe river. If they came a

(23:59):
little bit earlier, they were comingfrom the south. If they came later,
they were coming from the north.So good almost. You know pattern
this travel you know this north southtravel route. They were taking the turning
point for us. Where we werelike, okay, this is the real
deal. Was that our landowner hadgotten a video clip and we went up

(24:19):
one day just expecting to see avague image of you know, a dark
thing moving through the woods. Weexpect blurry and you know, completely inconclusive,
and it blew our socks off.Did the video did? He'd been
our guy, and we've seen hisboxes and videotapes. He his whole life

(24:40):
has had video cameras and has goneout and just videotape wildlife, miscellaneous,
frogs, deer, you know everything. And he'd been out there sitting to
the east of directly to the eastof where our camp site is is a
field and he was sitting at whatwe call the north Woods. He was

(25:03):
sitting on the north wood line anda couple of cement blocks he had sitting
out there, and he heard acouple of what he thought some like pig
storms. He thought it was abear, and he turned the camera over
that way, and in this videoyou could see a couple of pine trees
and he's kind of panning back andforth. You see what we thought were

(25:26):
trunks. You see a couple ofthose trunks start moving. And as you
watch, this figure comes out frombehind those trees and was walking north,
drops down into like a little gullythere. You can you're only seeing it
maybe from what knees up. Maybe, yeah, you could see the buttet.

(25:47):
I don't think we could. Idon't think we would really see the
knees at that point anyway. Andit was just like you know in the
yeah, the Patterson film where youcan see like the muscle contraction like in
the deltoids. It's a shoulders swingingback, you know, you can see
the muscle movement in the back.You could see that clearly, clearly,
and it keeps going. It dropsit down into this gully where you can't

(26:08):
see it at all. So hetakes off running further into the north woods,
thinking if it's going to follow thatgully. It sort of loops around
to the right and comes up excuseme near a hunting blinds. It's been
up there for years. That wasup there for years. I don't think
it's up there now. And yeah, and you see from a really long

(26:33):
distance, not really long distance,but you just kind of very vaguely see
some movement between the trees, andthen it comes up back out of the
gully near that hunting blind and takesoff and continues moving right along the edge
of that gully off to like theeast northeast. And yeah, it was

(26:53):
really like, even just thinking aboutit now, we we were just speechless,
just speechless. I didn't realize wewere watching Jim had taken a knee
on the floor. He'd gone,and he'd gone in the house. He
had a big screen like projector TVin there. Had taken a knee on
the floor, and I had ahand on his shoulder, and I didn't
realize I was squeezing his shoulder sohard just watching this. I yeah,

(27:19):
it was. The video has sincedegraded to the point where you just can't
see anything on it, which issad. Yeah, I was. I
always advocate for the digitization of allmagnetic tapes and v vhs is and all
that stuff, and because that's exactlywhat happens. You play it, and
it just over time that wears away. I even showed him exactly how

(27:42):
to do it, gave him theequipment to do it. But he is
not what I would call the mosttechnologically adept. He's even worse than I
am. So the difference, Iguess I don't tend to procrastinate as much
as he does. But well,I often wonder how many good pieces of
footage are out there that are gonnastart cascading upon us after discovery. There's

(28:03):
got to be more. There haveto be more. Oh, certainly,
I would, I would think.So I've heard about some, I've just
never seen it. So so yousaw this and you holy smokestar here,
I've heard them a couple of timeshere. I don't know if you ever
found any footprints or anything. Butthere was enough indication at this location to
start devoting some resources and time.Oh yeah, yeah, very good.
And what was what? What wasthe perhaps the procedure, what became standard

(28:27):
operating procedure for trying to work thisproperty? What would you really focus on
and how would it get done?Actually has changed and now we're just in
it to experience what we can experience, but initially when we're trying to get
data, trying to get video,trying to you know, we've run the
recorders from day one basically, butyou know, some one of the guys

(28:49):
or some of the guys would goout in the early evening and set up
in a tree, stand quietly andwait for things to happen. Going across
the field where you guys are makinga noise camp and sitting there by myself.
Yeah, yeah, there's that there. What else walking during the day,
trying to find footprints and any pieceof viable soil there is. We

(29:11):
found some, but it's we've hada lot touch on castable because of the
sand and everything else, or they'vebeen in water, or they've been in
water. Found the one in theriver bank. Tried to cast that that
did not go well. Good God, Check for hair samples. There's a
lot of barbed wire all over theplace, so it's a constant to just

(29:33):
walking down the fence line looking forwhere anything may have come through. I
think we found deer, raccoons,squirrel bear, nothing that anybody thought to
actually, you know, was worthcollecting. Pet Gal who used to be
part of our group did send onesample someplace one time and it turned out

(29:56):
to be I think deer, wasn'tit? Or cow? Cattle are out?
I think it was. I thinkit was cow too. Yeah,
So you didn't really have a routinenecessarily at the time. Plus back then
I was pretty much working seven daysa week. I have a lot of
it. Stay tuned for more Bigfootand Beyond with Cliff and Bogo. We'll

(30:19):
be right back after these messages.Did either of you ever put eyes on
one of these things while on theproperty? Yes? Yes, yeah,
Jim and I had gone up.There was another another brief video that one
of his kids had taped his bottomhis rabbit hutch over but of one walking

(30:45):
along the woodline east to west intothe late afternoon sun. And I thought
at first that's a mask because itlooked so distorted and ridiculous and why and
shiny and then you see a blink. But after and we figured that distorted

(31:07):
look was because of the sun reflectingoff at oily skin. But after that,
we spent some time going up andjust sitting there's a large oak tree
at the top of a hill theedge of the field, and just scanning,
scanning, that north woodline for hours, and there was one night that
vocals from across the river and fromtwo different locations across the river, and

(31:32):
we were hearing a bunch a bunchof sounds in the river, loud splashing
like little plunging noises. And thenwe got a couple of grunts and one
came from the north, the otherone came from the west, down what
we call the slot. And asJim is looking. By this point,
we've moved off the hill and towardthe fire, which was down to just

(31:53):
embers at that point, and Jim'slooking down the slot with the night vision.
He's aid, is, take alook at this and tell me if
you see what I see. AndI didn't do it because I was freaked
out. This was a new thing. I will do it now, and
I kicked myself from not looking now, but at that time, this was
a new thing and I was kindof scared. I didn't look. But

(32:15):
he well, you can just writewhat you saw. Basically, it was,
I guess, like a imagine ShaquilleO'Neill walking down a trail towards you,
but he's actually bigger than he actuallyhas, with wider shoulders and then
as you see him, he justturns and basically walks quietly down a forty

(32:39):
foot embankment and you're just sitting there, going somebody else, please look at
this and make sure I'm not crazy, very steep embankment, and at that
point it was just like a recoveredran up to a look to see if
I could still see it, andit was just gone. Whether there's a
trail that runs kind of like,uh north northeast to west southwesternly right along

(33:04):
the river bank, so I'm assumingit went one direction or the other along
the trail. Do you find prints, Well, yeah, yeah, we
found lots and lots of tracks.Trackways. Again, they're in sand.
Basically you get a little detail hereand there. The big giveaway that is
the step length and the stridelings.You know, you're getting fifty to fifty

(33:25):
two inch steps. The thing isto a lot of that, you're not
getting tracks on at the ground sohard most of the time that even like
a you know, four thousand poundstractor doesn't even leave tread marks. Yeah,
it's either it's either compacted down sohard like that or it's just sand
and it fills back in. Butuh, back to the visuals. The

(33:47):
first well, my son and Ihad a night where we saw something at
the edge of the field and hehad said to me, walk over this
way with me to the cars.I got a pee, so I said,
okay, I want to walk withyou. And so he's around the
corner. We trade places. Iget around the corner and he said,

(34:10):
Mom, look up there, soI think it is And it looked like
a person standing there with you sidewaysto us with a hoodie up. And
we used to have to go upto the top of the hill to get
the cell phone signal. And Isaid, no, that's just our landowner
with the hoodie up. He's like, Mom, I don't think so,
that's way too big. At thispoint, he's like nineteen years old,

(34:32):
in the size of a sasquatch.But my you know, mama bear thing
is kicking in and I'm like,nope, keep calm, that's just our
landowner making a phone call. There'sno light or anything. So we go
back to the fire, grab thenight vision and walk back over there and
our landowner. Everybody's accounted for,and he comes walking from the opposite direction

(34:55):
from the north Woods with Paul.Yeah. Whatever had been standing there was
gone, but it was only sillawet that we saw. There was no
detail whatsoever. The following year though, Fourth of July, that's one of
our guys had literally in the headlightsfull on, no question about it,

(35:19):
sighting. And it was fourth ofJuly weekend, which is historically been a
very very active weekend for us,and there were just vocal after vocal after
vocal after vocal, and we couldhear the sound travels so well out there,
we could hear a mile away inone of the cabins, somebody was
having a party, and so Miketook his car out just to see like

(35:43):
where the party was so we wouldknow. And on the way back in
he turned a corner, came upover this little rise and crossing the east
west road there, going from northto south, there was one right in
the road and when his headlights hitit, he had just enough time to
register what it was and watch itfinish crossing the road. And that was

(36:07):
our first no question about it.Citing now you mentioned the sound quality of
the area, like the I'm noteven sure what they call it, but
how how well sound travels in thisparticular area. But the vocalizations i've heard
from you seem to be very veryclose, and not all of them,
of course, not all of them, but some of them seem to be

(36:29):
fairly close. Would you say thevast majority of vocalizations before we start listening
to these are from a good distanceor where you focus on the really close
stuff, because you had a strategythat managed to make it work out.
They most of the vocalizations come fromright across the river. We're the campus
at the top of a high riverbank, and then most of the vocalizations

(36:51):
come from across the river. We'vegotten them from the north Woods and a
lot of them from the south Woodstoo, but most of what we record
is within I don't know quarter ofmy own about that sounds where Yeah,
I mean, I mean they comein close. Do you think they're they're
reacting to your presence, which iswhy they're vocalizing, or like, do

(37:13):
they see you? You think acrossthe river hear you perhaps, or do
you think they're doing this activity anyway? I think we're in the way from
where they want to go. It'sa little perturbed with you guys. And
that's always been my impression, atleast because that trail there was before we
started camping there. Basically that wouldbe a trail, the easy, you
know, most direct route from comingacross the river at Wanda shallows points to

(37:37):
get to the north Woods. Andnow we're there on occasion, so we're
in the way. Yeah, Isee, that's interesting. That's very interesting.
Of course it's a it's an assumption, and I realized that. But
I mean, what else do wehave at this point. Yeah, the
more you know, the more youdon't. Yeah, I said, though,
we haven't gotten really distant vocals ina long time, but we used

(37:58):
to those early years, you know, well, we would hear them for
what sounded like a mile away,you know, here and there, so
and in that case it wasn't becauseof us. No, I don't know
if they're locator calls or what theyare, but I saw them. Figured
it out. It's been twenty yearsalmost at the same location. I'm still
trying to figure it out. So, well, let's take a listen to

(38:20):
a couple of these things I'm lookingat. We have kind of limited time,
and do you have so many recordings? Our producer Matt Prutt, who's
of course on the line with us, he's taken the opportunity to go and
kind of weed them down to fourfour representative clips. That great to share,
And of course we're even running outof time here, so whatever we
don't get to now, we'll bumpthat over to our members section and our

(38:42):
members can hear the rest of thevocalizations. Okay, So why don't we
start out with this July two thousandand seven, Combo vocals. What you
want to tell us what was goingon when this happened here before we listen
to it? Or should we justjump right into it? Go ahead and
jump right into it. Okay,So we have a two different vocalizers.

(39:22):
Do you think it's the same vocalizer? There? Two different, two different
And when I labeled at combo vocals, it was because that was the first
time that we'd heard two different typesat the same time. Yeah, I
would say that the first one mightbe described as a whoop of some sort
and the second one, what wouldyou describe that as almost like a crow
call or something. I'm not sure. We've always called that the ae scream

(39:43):
the awe scream. I gain,that makes sense, That totally makes sense.
And were there knocks in there aswell? I couldn't is that everybody's
hearing something else. I don't remember. I think there may have been,
but yeah, we'd put up atree stand, put probably twenty five feet
in a tree on our side ofthe river early in the year, like
in April, to let it justkind of become part of the landscape there.

(40:04):
And earlier in the year, Paul, who was in the tree stand
that night, watched as Jim andI came back from the other side of
the river. We'd gone over tosit in a ground blind and just see
if anything happened by Nothing did,but Paul watched us through night vision come
back through that section across the river. The night before this, Jim had

(40:27):
been up there and five minutes afterhe got back down, we got a
whooper turf from across the river.So this night this happened with that whoop
the o scream, that's all weheard from camp. Paul came back and
let us know that from where hewas sitting right there, he could hear
these kind of brunts and huffs andlow, low sounds, and he could
also hear something else doing it alittle bit further north on the river.

(40:51):
But he also watched something and hejust described as dark and massive, just
kind of rise up and move offbehind the trees right there. And it
was right where Jim and I hadwalked. He had walked, watched us
walk from that area and across theriver. He said, it was just
compared to us, just massive.Those are some cool vocalizations. And you

(41:15):
think these are just a few hundredyards away or something. Yeah, yeah,
just just across the river. Thewoops cameifty yards. Yeah, probably
the oscreen. The roops were downcloser to the river, so a little
closer. I'm uh. There wassuch a high quality recording. First of

(41:37):
all, congratulations on that great job. But having done my fair share of
Sasquatch recordings over the years, Ithink Bobo would attest to this with how
good a quality recording you just playedfor us? It must have been phenomenal
in person, because recordings pale incomparison to what you actually hear with your
own ears. They do volume wise, Yeah, I also pick up a

(42:00):
lot of stuff that we don't hearwith our own years too. Oh a
good point. So how did that, like, did he any did this
can activity that particular night in thetwo thousand and seven did it continue all
night? Long, and because Iknow this is a small snippet of what
you actually recorded, it was extraordinarilyactive night all night long? Or do
they come and go and like itwent dead after a while, it went

(42:22):
dead after and typically most of thetime that's what happens. It's kind of
like, you know, they showtheir beds and then they take off and
that's it. Yeah, four hourswork for fifteen minutes of fun, right,
say twenty years of work for likethree hours and a couple of sidings,
right, time well spent well Forme. The broadside is a kind

(42:45):
of made me think that maybe theyare real, because I'd always wondered when
I was a kid, I didI really see what I saw? It's
like doing really existed. I've beenwasting a lot of time. But when
I saw the one now it's like, oh, hey, okay, don't
waste of time. Just thirty yearsfor that to happen. But okay,
yeah, thirty years. You havea few more thirty years left, and

(43:07):
you good stay tuned for more Bigfootand Beyond with Cliff and Bogo. We'll
be right back after these messages.Well, why don't we go chronologically?
Okay, and we can jump overto the next recording, which is labeled
July two thousand and eight. Displaymister Matt Prue, why don't you que

(43:31):
that up for us? Oh?That was interesting. I clearly started out

(44:32):
with a human like sound, butyou know what, sasquatches sound like big
dudes in the woods, So Imean, that's not a concern for me
necessarily. And then of course thecoyotes jumped in, so our listeners,
you know, clearly coyotes were present. And then at the end I caught
some sort of like like that kindof thing. Was that dud? Do
you feel that that was in responseto the coyotes or was it a separate

(44:52):
individual or what did you hear withyour own ears there? I know,
Clue, I don't know what itwas. Sponsor that was the first time
we ever heard that kind of samwhat they kind of call now samurai chatter.
That was the first time you everheard any of that. So what
was the prequel, like, whatwas the set up the context of this

(45:13):
particular vocalization, what led to that? Let me see, I've gotten my
notes. I've gotten my notes righthere. You know what, By the
way, there's nothing to be embarrassedabout with that you sound like I think
that was a nervous laugh. Butthe best investigators take notes. In fact,
everybody on the audience please take noteof this. They are consulting their
notes, which is the power ofnotes. You think you're never going to

(45:34):
forget such a thing because of suchan earth moving sort of situation, when
you encounter a sasquatch nonsense, youwill forget. Everyone should take notes.
So thank you very much for demonstratingthat, even though it sound like you're
a little nervous about it. SoI'm just alarmed for the ride. That's
cool, nothing wrong with that.I keep up camp basically these days.

(45:54):
Oh nice, excellent nerd. Soit was Fast of July weekend. Typically
that's our biggest has been our biggestattendance weekend. Our two smaller kids we
were always with us for the summer, so they were there every year.
It's a holiday weekend. So ourpeople who come from we had Pat and
Joe who came from the Toronto area. We had Jeff and Diane Simon who

(46:17):
drove up all the way from Indianapolisand for them it's like a seven hour
drive and they were bringing their kidsor kid at the time, so it
was. It was a it wasa big group in camp. And earlier
that night we had at twelve ten, we had had like some of those
O screams across the river. Ithought it was done and over with.
Everybody went to bed about twelve fortyfive, But everybody was still awake when

(46:40):
this started happening. And that's aboutYeah, that's about the context of the
whole thing. You know, didyou, guys ever do calls yourselves like
to elicit or do you just record? We just we've tried a couple of
times. It's been it's been severalyears since we've even tried that. I
never really got a response to it. We found that every time we have

(47:06):
responded ourselves, it cuts everything offshort. We've tried a couple of times
to have like me having the femalevoice answer, to see if we could
start kind of training them to okay, to think, if I yell,
somebody's going to talk back, somaybe they'll, you know, if we
talk first, maybe we can getthem to yell back at us. But

(47:28):
you know, a couple of timeswe've done that and say, hey,
you know, talking softly soft femalevoice, hello, you know we hear
you that it just stops it deadas tracks, So you don't in general,
if they're going off, you juststay quiet and enjoy it. There's
no response on your part that doesanything except for drives them away. Right.
Yep, you said this was onJuly fourth. It wouldn't happen to

(47:49):
be the same July fourth. Thatsighting that you mentioned occurred on what it
let me see the citing Mike's fromthe car. Yes, yeah, two
thousand and nine, so it wasthe following year, following year. Okay,
And do you you said that Julyfourth is a really good day,
like that's the best time? Likedoes it peak at that time of year?
And if so, is it?Are they do? They seem to

(48:12):
be present at all times a year. We're all that we don't know.
Our activity has always followed like abell curve. It starts in the spring,
sometimes early spring, It ramps upin the middle of the summer,
and then it starts dying back downagain. We have heard them into November,
I believe, yeah, right aboutthe start of hunting season, because

(48:34):
we don't really go up there duringhunting season. No, there's too many
rednecks, too many gone right soonas soon as especially like gun season starts.
Uh, it just it just stops. It just stops. There was
one person who lived across there's aroad, that Northwest road or that north

(48:54):
South road. One person who livedacross the road claims to have watched one
and I don't know what time ofthe year it was, but it was
snowy walk up his sideyard and crossthe road going like towards the river.
But we've never seen or heard anything. We're not up there as much either,
But even the landowner doesn't really seeor hear much of anything. Is

(49:16):
it a topic of conversation amongst theresidents that area, Like did they see
each other at the market? Goes? You hear that last night? You
know that kind of stuff that Idon't know that. There's a couple of
people, the residents are aware.Some of them will talk about it.
Some of them, you know,we've never talked to. So there's the
one kid that actually lives across saidhe saw the wine because he found the

(49:39):
crinch in the snow. That's allI was just talking about. Oh that's
the same person. Okay, Well, you know I wanted to know about
the year round activity because you've beenworking this spot with twenty years or more
and more or right around twenty years, and that quantity of data is of
value. I know that out whereI am, and it also it seems
and can Tucky and in Washington ata location, and even in California at

(50:02):
another location. The data that's comingin strongly indicates that they don't move very
far. And I'm curious if that'sin all areas of the country or if
it's just the areas that I happento be involved with slightly, because the
data seems squarely in the corner ofthese things. More or less they put
in a particular area. Now peoplesay, oh, well, then you

(50:24):
post cameras up in that area.The area's like ten miles by ten miles
or more, you know. Imean, it's huge at the end of
the day, but not really thatbig for a large terrestrial animal to be
moving around in a fairly localized sortof place. And of course, this
is based on very little data becauseof all the quote unquote researchers out there,

(50:45):
there's not a lot of data comingin. Honestly, there's a lot
of stories and I heard knocks andGrandma's holler that kind of stuff, But
there's not a lot of actual dataand information and documentation coming in, so
we don't really know yet, butit sounds like you've been collecting good notes
for quite a long time. Itmight be really interesting to check into that.
I mean, obviously, sightings andactivity in general will peak at certain

(51:08):
times a year, but you alsohave to include the human factor. You
said so yourself, we don't reallygo out there that time here there is
a big human factor involved. ButI'd be very interesting. I would be
very interested to learn about some ofthe seasonal behavior in that sort of way,
or if there's any evidence like footprintsthat might be attributable to a certain

(51:29):
individual in the area in the snowor something like that. What's your gut
feeling or what is the data inyour area point to do these things move
very far? I don't think so. I don't think so, And we
theorize. Of course, we don'tknow for sure, but our best guess
is that there are a lot ofcedar swamps in the area, and we
think they've probably moved deep into thosecedar swamps. Literally, that was my

(51:51):
next question is like wintertime, howmany cedar swamps are in the vicinity?
Literally? Yeah, because Cedar swampsI think are the key to this thing.
There's also the uh what the heck'sname of it by Houton Lake,
oh dead Stream Stream slump there that'sbasically right in the middle of the state
over there as you head towards likegray Lean Air Base and stuff, and

(52:12):
except for an occasional military patrol,there's really not much it goes on out
there, especially in the winter.It's I mean, I figured for a
Sasquatch, it's only like less thanfifty miles away, so they could probably
make that in a day. Butif there's some in your neck of the
wood, they wouldn't have to goanywhere. Yeah, they wouldn't. I
don't just some of the walks I'vetaken around the area, and there's there's

(52:35):
a great area of the south ofus that's I mean, there aren't any
even really any houses there. Theycould hide there easily. But even getting
back there, we went for awalk, me and another friend of ours
went for a walk. Was itlast yeah, last year or maybe even
earlier this year. My memory isso bad. If I didn't remember things,

(52:57):
i'd forget things. Which waves herethere for probably about three miles,
but it took us like six hoursto do it. So anything that got
back in there, you're not goingto find it if it doesn't want to
be found. And of course,the winners of Michigan or legendary, you
know, I mean there's they're ridiculous. I can't imagine why anyone lives there.

(53:19):
Nothing personal, of course, Imean you're much hardier folk than me.
It's a stablishing. I mean,five ten feet of snow, imagine
on occasions. You know, Moneymakeronce told me that he found the spot
that he felt that the sasquatch haddug through the snow down to the ground
level and was using that to disincrease the temperature a few degrees for its

(53:43):
own use. Of course, Ithink I might have mentioned to you maybe
in the museum or maybe blabbing aboutit on the podcast. I think Cedar
swamps for a big key to theirsurvival during the winter time. Do you
have any idea what these local Sasquatchesin your area are doing to accommodate themselves
during the winter. I think they'reusing vacated bear dams or sometimes even maybe

(54:04):
coyote dems if they want to digdown a little bit farther, because I've
actually stuck my head into a coupleof bear dems and some of them are
have maybe ten feet back and eightfeet high. Wow, that one that's
on the river bank that you're notsupposed to know that we stuck our heads
in. Yeah, I mean youcould easily stand up in there, if

(54:30):
you squat down. I mean youcould actually sleep in there. I mean
there's nothing in there, not eventhe bear, which is probably a good
thing. But that's really interesting becauseeverybody's heard, of course, about the
Olympic Project nest site, and mostpeople are aware that there was a second
nest site found just a ridge orso over from the initial nest site.
And I was privy to that locationjust probably a week or two after it

(54:52):
was found. And what we determinedby our on site investigation is that that
particular sasquatch, and we're confident itwas the sasquatch, by the way,
was repurposing a bear den that wasunderneath the log. All the all the
nesting material was piled out in frontof this little hole and I say little,
It was probably about two and ahalf maybe three feet wide or something

(55:13):
like that, and inside whatever itwas brought the nesting material inside there as
well, and was digging out thehole to make it larger. We retrieved
a couple bare hair, I believefrom from the nesting material. Well inside
the inside the den area, therewere scrapes on the wall. Inside this
little den was underneath a log,a fairly large log, so it kind

(55:37):
of dug it. A bear apparentlyhad dug out this small den, but
a sasquatch came along later and wasrepurposing it. And of course some people
out there, if we have Ihope we have skeptical listeners. I always
welcome skeptics as long as they're they'repolite and kind and ask good questions.
And not just jerks, but ourskeptics out there might be saying, well,
how do you know this this wasn'ta bear thing like bears brought in
all this nesting material. Well,there's a couple of reasons. Number one

(55:59):
is outside the hole that was theinitial bear den. I interpreted the area
as having been dug out because therewas a pile of dirt outside. It's
a few feet outside like tailings basically, so something was going scooping up dirt
and piling it out in front ofthe hole to make it larger, and

(56:20):
in that pile of dirt and thetailings or whatever you want to call it
was a handprint, not a pawprint, but a hand print. And
then we've also in the area.Todd Hale was there, Shane Corson was
there. After a period of timehad gone by and we were confident that
the sasquatch was not going to bereturning to the location. We didn't want

(56:44):
to disturb any behaviors or you know, for it and whils. We didn't
want to lose any opportunities of knowingwhere one was going, of course,
But after we were confident that thething wasn't going to come back anymore,
we started collecting some of the nestingmaterial and that trip yielded three foot print
casts that I personally took, andI think two actually two of those casts.

(57:07):
The footprints were underneath the nesting material, which of course gives us a
time period, a timeline here.Those footprints were laid down before the nesting
material was put down there. Sowith those clues, I'm confident enough to
say that that was a sasquatch situation, and it seems to me it was
actually repurposing a bare den. Soyou bringing that up is really really interesting

(57:30):
to me. So much has beengoing on, and apparently it's going on
to this present day as well,or pretty close to this present day,
I guess, I mean here withus now, you don't know what's going
on there. But having said that, we're kind of running out of time.
On the initial podcast, I thoughtwe're going to jump into vocalizations and
mostly talk about that, but therewas so much more information to share.

(57:51):
So would you mind sticking around forour member section and we can listen to
the last few vocalization recordings that wecan and learn a little bit more about
the situation and bring it up tothe present day. Yees, sure,
that would be fantastic. I wouldreally really appreciate that. So yeah,
people listening out there, there's gonnabe more over our member section. I
think it's released every Thursday, ifremember right, five bucks a month.

(58:12):
If you want to join us,it's great, I mean that's what I
hear at least. So, Bob, do you have anything else to add
before we split and do the memberstuff? No? All right, very
good? Then why don't you digus out of here? Then? Jim
and Stacy, thanks a lot forcoming on the show with us today and
I appreciate you're going to stick aroundfor the members section and tell you out
there listening. Thank you for joiningus, and until next time, y'all,

(58:34):
keep it Squatchy. Thanks for listeningto this week's episode of Bigfoot and
Beyond. If you liked what youheard, please rate and review us on
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(58:55):
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