Ep. 226 - John Andrews

(00:02):
Big Food and be on with Cliffand Bobo. These guys are your favorites,
so like to subscribe and read itfive Stach and Me on Righteous Day
and listening watching always keep it squatchingAnd now your hosts Cliff Barrickman and James

(00:29):
Bobo Fay, Cliff, Hey,Bob's what's happening Man? Oh not much.
I was surprised you made it back. I thought you were going to
be out there cast and it soundedlike, well, yeah, I still
maybe. Actually that's a whole complicatedthing about my life right now. I
just ran home real fast. Ican do the podcast from home instead up
from work. And as I wasdriving down my driveway, which you know

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is like a half mile driveway,I got a call from the contact in
between the witness and I. SoI got I just called the witness and
left a message. I just textedhim him to call me back. So
the deal is this for our listeners. A sighting occurred two nights ago,
and that would be on the nightof August twenty second, out kind of
near Carson, Carson, Washington.And I'm trying to gather more information.

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But what I have so far assecondhand information that somebody that they heard some
noise out back and they thought itmight have been a bear or a cougar,
So they went out back just tocheck it out, and they saw
a very large man shaped shadow standingon their berm next to the woods I
guess like a berm behind their housesomewhere. And the guy ran inside,

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but not before he saw the thingrun along the woods line I guess the
woodline and kind of disappear. Heran inside to get his gun. When
he came back out with his withhis rifle, the thing was nowhere to
be seen. He didn't hear anything. He went to go look on the
berm and apparently was from what Iunderstand, it's very very steep, and
there were footprints basically going up theberm from the woods and then who knows

(01:57):
where else it went, you knowat this point. So when I first
heard about it, I was toldthat the witness told are the intermediary who
put me in touch with him.Man, you should see the size of
those footprints. They're huge, iswhat he said. So clearly there's footprints
in the ground. Wow, youguys had a rain, didn't didn't you
just have rain? No rain,but rain is coming in a couple of

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days supposedly, maybe as soon asTuesday or even sooner. So it's kind
of a race against time. Andto complicate matters even more, I leave
tomorrow for Idaho. I'll be inIdaho all weekend, so yeah, if
I so basically I have tonight orearly early early tomorrow morning to try to
cast these things, if I caneven get the Witness to allow me to
come on his property. So I'mjust giving you a heads up and giving

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all of our listeners and also ourguests as well, who will introduce in
a minute. I mean no disrespectwhatsoever to any of y'all. But if,
obviously, if a call comes infrom the Witness, I need to
take it. I need to gospeak to him, and I may even
need to leave immediately because it's it'sa it's a bit of a drive out
there for me. It's about anhour and a half or so, you
know, and I still have tocome home and pack for Idaho tomorrow tonight.

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So there's all that. So yeah, so there's there's school stuff happening.
As usual in my life. Ilive a very big footy sort of
life, So there's that. Soanyway that I want to give you a
heads up in case I do needto leave. But other than that,
man, cool, other cool thingsare happening too. Got a new mask
for the museum. Got a newNative mask. I'm working with a tribal
member to try to identify what kindof masks that is. And I think

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I haven't nailed it down on oldone. It's not too old. The
guy I'm working with says is probablywithin in the last twenty five thirty years,
and he may even know the artist. So I'm going to try to
reach out to the artist to verifythat he's the one that did it.
But it's pretty cool, man,It's really cool. Yeah, it's a
Zonica mask, but it's unlike anyother Zonica mask I've ever seen. It's

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quite large, it's eighteen inches.I got it for a very good price,
which I'm because because the person whoI bought it from isn't a Native
artist. He just has a bunchof stuff that he's gathered over time,
you know, like through a statesales or whatever. But it does appear
that this is a legitimate Native mask, and again, I think I do
have the tribe. I just wantto try to verify it, and maybe
even the artist, so we'll see. But this particular mask is so unusual

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because not only is it Zonkwa andquite large again, like eighteen inches or
something like that, but out ofit, out of Zonkwa's head, are
two skulls, like almost like antenna, you know, popping out of her
head that shaped like skulls. AndI asked my indigenous friend what is the
meaning of this, and he says, well, it could be a couple
of things. It could be theidea that zonic Wad steals children and maybe

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those are baby skulls or some sortof children's skulls which has its own macab
sort of overtone do it, orjust people in general, you know,
like maybe because Zonica is the cannibalhairy woman that lives in the woods.
But it also might have an associationwith apparently like a kind of like a
secret society or a secret cult ofcannibal people, you know, in the

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Pacific northwest of in British cl Soit may have an association with that.
So hopefully I can dig up alittle bit more information and learn a little
bit more about this, and thenwhen I do learn about it, I
can write up some information on itand then add it to the displays at
the North American big Foot Center.So yeah, yeah, it's a really
impressive mask. I've never seen anotherone like it, so I can't be

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it can't be more excited about havingit. It's really great. But what
you've been hearing about the fires aBluff Creek by the way, Bluff Creek
is burning, some of it isYeah, I think it's gonna be all
right. Well, I was lookingat some stuff the updates today, man
like up by Mosquito Lake is burning, and then up just north of Blue
Creek Mountain is burning where the famousPrince happened. And then the fire folks

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are saying that those two fires arepredicted to burn together anyway, So what
they're what they're gonna do is tryto push the fires down into Bluff Creek,
which will almost certainly take out LaosCamp, and then push the fire
into the river and try to controlit down there. So it sounds I
mean, who by by the timethis comes out, we'll all know the

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outcome. But essentially, at thispoint, it looks like Louse Camp is
going to be a goner. Thewind's been really mellowed though. That's the
one thing I'm hoping for. Andthen it did rain up here. Oh
that's good. Yeah, I wasjust I was just at work a little
while ago checking out the fire updatesand and there's also stuff at Blue Creek
and then the upper reaches of BlueCreek as well, so that's problematic.
Yeah, I supposed to take Shannonthe grow there. Sometimes this coming up,

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I said, you better hurry.It's it's not gonna be there.
It's going to burn down one ofthese days. Coming up here, seeing
I think, yeah, well,Shannon, if you're listening, you might
have be you might have missed yourchance, you know, to see it
as it was, So we'll see. I hope not God, I'd be
a true loss absolutely. But youknow, speaking of Bigfoot history, you
want to bring our guests in theyjust so Love said recently without Cliff,

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and we had a John lined up. But I was like, this is
this is the guy. I said, it's too important to just do a
lot like Cliff's got to be herebecause this guy's a big figure. We
respect him a lot. He's beeninvolved for fifty sixty years. Whatever it's
been. Well, the information he'sstill got stuff going on. He just
sent me some audio the other day. That's something got just in the last
two weeks. Great great researcher anda friend of the squatsing of this show,

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John Andrews from Washington. John,thank you very much for coming on
big Foot and Beyond and welcome.We're so pleased and honored to have you.
Yeah. Well, John Andrews,And as I say, I've been
at this longer than I'd like toadmit, since I believe it or not,
the late nineteen fifties and into thesixties in Colorado. So I started
there and expanded my research into severalof the Western States and British Columbia as

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well, and even at one pointwas all ready to go on an expedition
to Mongolia to look for the almostor the almasty. So, you know,
in all these years, while I'vehad quite a bit here, I've
always went to go to other areasmore of a worldwide view of what's going
on. And we can discuss thatlater. Well, John, So you
said you got into it in thelate nineteen fifties early nineteen sixties. Was

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it the Jerry Crew incident that gotyou in it? Or perhaps John Green
or what got you going, Yeah, hey, what a guy question,
because I've been reviewing my notesure andI just put down the word Jerry Crew.
And so you might have remembered inthe well Boy Scout article back at
that time was talking about Jerry Crew, and I talked about the Gold Road,

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which you all know about, andI visited and spent about a week
back in there here several years ago, starting off with rather a strange incident
even before we went in to thatarea. So all the things had happened
there are you know, the earthmoving wheel being picked up and rolled,
and then culverts and I worked withculverts, you know, twenty foot long

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culverts being literally picked up and carriedthem thrown into you know, a little
ravine or something. When I readthat, it only took me two seconds
to realize something real is going on. It didn't take me long to figure
out Bigfoot is real. Now.Did you ever have a chance to meet
Jerry Crew back in the day ordid there never made the connection. No,

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it was some time before we evengot into northern California and going up
to Go Road, hearing about thehistory of it and knowing that it was
the one of the local bands.I'm won't call him tried. The Indian
bands had actually stopped the Go Roadfrom going into their sacred area. And
it was like a movie driving upthis nice looked like freshly black asphalted road

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and seeing the floors slowly en roachupon that road, and then parking and
then hiking in from there into abig burn area where we spent four or
five or six days. So Inever met him, but I certainly had
become familiar with that country. Heremore recently, I see, and you
were living out in Colorado at thattime. You said, yeah, I

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was in Colorado, and then wemoved to Montana after that, and I
carried on my research there. Nowyou've been back then, everybody was in
contact with snail mail and phone callspretty much because that was the only those
are the only games in town.Do you remember being in contact with some
of those early researchers back of theday, and what were those interactions like?
Well, you know, obvious I'dprobably forgotten more than I remember.

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But Bob Tipmus, who really wasa big figure. I think he might
have faded a bit now because he'sdied and as you know, he spent
a lot of his life as anex page up in Harrison, Hot Springs,
close to John Green, and Ivisited him on several occasions on my
own and spent hours with him,and he told me some fabulous stories that
I'm sure he didn't tell anybody else. And he also gave me a cast

(10:37):
of his big foot that he hadin northern California, and so I've got
that to this day. You gottatell us some of those stories, Yeah,
yeah, So can you tell ussomething that Bob told me? Because
unfortunately, Bob, to me isthis figure that almost nobody knows about because
the new generation of bigfooters came inwith TV and YouTube and whatnot, and
Bob, mister Titmus, is justthis figure that we're standing on his shoulders,

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whether we realize it or not,you know. I mean, I'm
lucky, Bob and I are luckyenough to realize it. But so many
people have no idea who he is. And part of that is because mister
Titmos never really wrote much down.He recorded things on the back of footprint
casts in his beautiful, flowing cursivescript, but he never wrote a book.
He didn't do very many interviews hedidn't really seek attention at all.

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So Bob is this kind of elusive, mysterious figure in the history of Bigfoot
which we all need to tip ourhats to. Sony. Anything you can
share with us in our audience aboutBob Titmos would be very much appreciated.
No, I think, I surecan I give you some insight into him.
I really admire that guy, noend. He was small and wiry,

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tougher than hell. Again, annext American who ended up working for
the Canadian government, I think ona wildlife officer capacity. And he spent
a lot of times applying the innerthe inner passage from here to Alashka in
a sailboat than other things. Andhe got hurt when he was dragging his
boat sailboat onto a beach with anIndian friend and trying to get that boat

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off of the beach. He badlysprained or injured his back, and from
then on until he died, hewas in constant pain. And he tried
to be civil when he was thereand would just overcome him. But he
did his best, and he's traveled, he's had some amazing things happened to
him. In northern California, andthen we took him on his last trip

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to British Columbia. Told us aboutthat a little bit. Well, you
know, he's spent a lot oftime in northern California, and I'll start
with that one. And his storythere where he got the foot cast was
he would buy himself with a dog. And we met him there on one
occasion, and that he had byhimself traveled up what was then a dry

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river bed and evening caught up withhim, and rather than go back,
he laid down in the river bedand covered himself with branches and sticks and
things like that to keep a littlewarm. And upstream from there, up
dry river. From there, heheard these heavy footsteps and they came toward

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him, back back and forth awayfrom him and toward him on one side
of the river. And he couldhear that going on all night long.
And anyway, he got up thenext morning and he came out. But
that's the kind of guy that heis. He nothing scared of the guy.
He was absolutely amazing. And hespent a lot of time but John

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Green, since John Green only livedabout a five or ten minute drive away
from him, and so they becamegood companions over the years, So that's
how I met him. He toldme a lot of stories again that he
hasn't told anybody else, I think. And then we took him on his
last trip. A friend and Ia guy who had a little like a

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little fishing boat. We drove upthere and met him who we were towing
the boat behind us, and wetook him up to Bella Coula. Now
you have to go to William's Lakefrom where he lives, which is maybe
a four hour drive, and thenfrom there about two hundred and seventy five
miles of road into Bellacula. Andso we let him drive for a while.

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But I was never so happy inmy life to get him up from
behind the driver's seat. He wasa white knuckle driver, Well he said,
a white knuckle driver. He hadwhite knuckles. Are you guys did
hanging on? Well, I meanhe would. He drove like a maniac.
He was a fast driver, tookcorners fast, and we were very
concerned about getting there alive. Heseemed to have a real man. He

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was a real man, a missionguy. And so we drove in and
then we took this boat. Wespent prebbe close to a week he took
us back to the white bear,their Caramodi you've heard about up there on
Prince of don't say Prince of WalesIsland where he actually saw the white bear.

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He put up a trap for abig hunter in order to catch the
bear, and he never caught it. But while we were up there,
on two occasions, I saw thewhite bear their commode up on the interior
of the island, and we werejust fortunate at the time we were there
to have them walking along one ofthe beaches, and so I saw the

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Camodi. There's so many people hadbeen looking for had never seen. And
we saw him a day later inanother area right up along right up at
this island up there as well.So they're not there's not much known about
them, but they're called their Caramodiand their primarily we think a white phase
of the black bear. Stay tunedfor more Bigfoot and beyond with Cliff and

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Bogo. We'll be right back afterthese messages. I don't know if you
knew Bob Titmus for long enough.I don't know when these two first cross
paths. But do you have anyidea the scope of the evidence that he
lost in the boat fire. No, I don't. I don't know of

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that other than his stories about beingon a boat up in northern Alaska and
coming around a band and literally seeinga big foot on the shore, and
I think that was the first timehe'd seen one, and from then on,
you know, he was hooked.So I don't know how much he
lost from the fire. I justknow from talking to him the knowledge he

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has and some of the places hewent in his search for the big Foot,
including northern California and the Blue Mountainsas you know, down in the
southeast Washington. Yeah. I havea number of photographs from Paul Freeman's photo
album that was that were shared withme from both Michael Freeman and the Freeman
family and also doctor Jeff Meldrum whowas given a photo album by mister Freeman,

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and there's lots of pictures in thereof Bob Titmus, which which is
really great. Well, you know, and a little a side note is
that his son just called me recentlyand I don't know if he knew I'd
made a wax cast of a littlebust of a big foot. Yes,
I'm very aware of that. Iwas talking to Michael about it. Actually

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great work. By the way,I want to hear some titness stories,
like a secret, like something noone's heard. That's a cool Bob Tennis.
Well, one of the fascinating onesis, you know, being a
geographer, I collected a lot ofmaps of coastal British Columbia that the Dart
equivalent of the Department of the Interiorput out, and it's very much like

(17:33):
our USGS maps. And I gottons of those inaitions them together and made
marks on things that had happened upthere. And one of them dealt with
two things dealt with Bob talking toan Indian band and then going into the
interior not far from where they were. And it was a hot summer day
and he'd hiked up to this Heand his dog had gone up on this
river and there was a big bluffand it was hot, and so he

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heated his dog with behind this bluffresting in the shade. Have you heard
this one, No, it's coincidentally. He looks up and there were three
bigfoot a good distance away from him, and they were climbing this sheer cliff
wall. This description was that thehair was kind of honey like and sort
of golden and waving in the wind. And he watchs them for fifteen or

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twenty minutes climb this sheer cliff wall. And his description is being so much
larger than us and having a reachprobably twice that of ours. They were
able to negotiate an area that normallyhumanly we would have had trouble doing or
couldn't do it all. And howthey would reach up with their hand and
find some small protuberance, a rockor a piece of vegetation, grab onto

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it, lift their foot up,and then with we were not not only
even all the toes, but theywould find another little ledge and generally it
was a three toes. If wecould tell there'd be some extra toes,
they would support their entire weight onthose three toes and then continue to climb
that way, little by little untilreached the top of the cliff. And

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that was three of them that didthat. And he and his dog witnessed
that. And I've I've got thatnorton my map. I want to see
that. And the only other storycan Tanka. We're down in northern California
where he found with a bigfoot,you know, had thrown rocks out of
the way, you know, lookingfor ground squirrels, and we know,
you know, you all know aboutthat sort of thing going on, and

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then putting out a stories of knocks, sometimes very intricate, sometimes long,
and having him answer him exactly.And you've heard of that too, how
they're able to instantly play back whatyou've done, recorded what you said,
or a rock cadence that they're ableto pick up and repeat exactly just as

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you have. And so evidently forquite some time he and the Bigfoot carried
on this little cross communication with rocks. And gosh, there's there's other stories
too, I'll have to think aboutthem, but there was the one to
stand out that Bob. Bob toldme well that that is one of the
things that he should be credited with, is he's the first person to ever

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write about sasquatches doing knocks of anysort. And it might maybe there's an
earlier script somewhere, but the firstinkling that any of us had was written
up in the Bay Area Group newsletterwhere Bob Timas wrote in and said,
yeah, for all the world Iwas, I'm tracking this thing and Bluff

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Creek and it sounds like it's hittinga log against another log, and he's
the first person ever record that inwriting. Whether other people knew it,
I'm certainly indigenous people probably knew aboutthat sort of stuff, but he was
the first person to ever write thatdown and record it for people. So
he gets that credit that he kindof is the guy that should be credited
with the individual at least that shouldbe credited with discovering about wood dogs.

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So and as you know, heworked out from what I know, most
exclusively by himself, he and hisdog. It wasn't anybody else there to
witness what went on when Bob wasout in the field. And as you
know, we spent went for twicedown in the Blue Mountains and you know
d Duck Spring, and I've spenttime up there and camped a couple of
nights at d Duck and other areasin the Blue Mountains. And as I

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mentioned to you, Jeff Meldram,John Manzinsky, Drek Randall and I spent
several days and nights up in theBlue Mountains here several years ago. I
was fortunate to be with them andwe found a bed what had been a
winter bed, probably built on topof the snow and then just sunk down.
Of course because of weight, andI think I've got movies of that

(21:40):
as well. So I was fortunateat being able to go in with them
and spend some time in the BlueMountains. I was just in the Blue
Mountains last weekend, actually, Soyeah. The aggravating thing is that I
got home and I went back towork because I, you know, I
have that Bigfoot museum. And Itook a sighting report yesterday over the phone,
and an elderly gentleman up in Washingtonsomewhere wanted to share his stuff with

(22:03):
it. Before you know, heleft with it, basically, and I
opened my our sighting report book andthere's a blank siding report page with a
phone number and a name and whateverelse, and say call this guy.
And it was from the July thirtyfirst, and it's so aggravating to me.
So July thirty first, right,which is a few days before I
left for the Blue Mountains. Ithink I was up there on the fourteenth

(22:23):
or something like that. And Iremember and so and I said, what's
this about. It goes, oh, this guy saw a Sasquatch over by
toll Gate somewhere from like fifteen feetaway, Oh, by toll Gate on
the Highway twenties sixties. No,No, somewhere in eastern Oregon. I
think, dude, I was therelike three days. I was there like
a week ago, Like why didn'tyou? And no one followed up with
this guy? No one didn't anythink. Oh, I was so because

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we spend days driving around just lookingfor water where wildlife would be, but
we, of course didn't find any. And had I known where a sighting
had occurred, like two weeks before, I would have focused my efforts there,
But unfortunately I didn't come to myears. Well, I mean,
you know, as well, hardlyany water in that high country, as
you know very well up there springs, isolated areas like that, And of
course d Duck was unique because youknow, it's been amplified, made into

(23:08):
a little pond, and it makessense that bigfoot like any other animal would
come and visit that site and leavehand prints and things like that. So
d Duck Spring is a pretty apretty neat area. And do you know
how it got the name d Duck. No. West Summerland, who I
spent some time with, and hetook us out in the field, and

(23:29):
that's when the Forest Service alerted meto West and all the things he had
done, and his little wife Peewee. I spent several nights with him.
But the US Forest Service would haveforest crews up there, of course,
and they would do the work andthen at the end of the week or
a month, whenever it was apay period, they would all meet at
d Duck Spring and at that pointthey had to deduct a certain amount from

(23:52):
their paycheck, and Nashford got theterm d Duck Spring. So there's a
little history that I was fortunate tofind out about. That's great. So
it's tell us about I mean know, West Summerlind often gets overshadowed by Paul
Freeman, when actually they were justpartners in a lot of ways. There
was no competition or anything between them. They're just partners and they both deserve

(24:14):
so much credit for everything that wenton in the Blue Mountains for that time
period and even before eighty two whenPaul saw one and he started his big
Foot journey. And tell us alittle bit about West Summerlin if you would.
Well. West is a hard bakedlittle half Indian guy. You know,
spent some time in the rodeo anddoing a lot of guiding in the
Blue mountains, and when we wereup there, we found quite a few

(24:37):
camps that are now abandoned, youknow where I think, among others,
I'm not sure if he stayed andsome of those. So I know he's
spent a lot of time guiding.He also had a pretty significant UFO experience,
and maybe I don't know what Ieverybody knows about that. But West
would go up and take a stringof horses with him, and he had
names for the big foot up there, and I'm trying to remember a lot

(24:59):
of detail, but he described himphysically watching him, as seeing them the
size of the by steps on thisparticular individual, and he but he got
to know them, his individuals upthere. And on one occasion, his
horses were up there and they weretied up for the night, and something
came up and broke the halters.I mean they just pulled him apart,

(25:21):
pulled the rope apart. So hetold me that story. He also told
me, I though it sounds prettyfar fetched, to during the hunting season,
he heard some gunshots going on anda few moments later, a big
foot came running down this hill andit had been shot in the chest,
and it was blood from the chest. It ran down to a stream and

(25:41):
he could hear it down there andevidently it was slapping water on mud on
its chest to I guess, youknow, overcome the pain and the chest
and get some cold water on it. So that was an amazing story that
never heard. Yeah that West Westtold me he had some hair samples he
found. If you'd been in West'shouse, we spent the night there.

(26:04):
What a character. He didn't haveany walls in the room. He and
pe we spent the night in abed and it was just opened to everybody.
He must not have too many gueststhere. He said he felt fenced
in because he loved the outdoors,and so he felt better when he was
in a big open space. Andso you look in this room and here

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you see, you see the refergerator, you see a stove, You see
his living room, and then yousee the bedroom and that's where he and
then you had a big foot there, and on that big foot that he
had made a poster. He hadvarious things in there, and one of
them was a hair sample which hegave to me. He found that up
on the Tiger Mountain road. Heknew that road. Yeah, yeah,

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that's a windy road. I've spenttime up there. And of course you
can reach the Duck Spring by goingup Tiger Mountain, and there's a spot
up there as you're maybe more thanhalfway for there's a little pass in there,
and of course it would be onthe left hand side, and you
can walk into this little pass,climb this little ten foot press and Putson
walk into this pass. At thetime, I think Cramps had gone up

(27:12):
there and they'd gone in there.And I found it where they had made
cast bigfoot tracks along this little streamarea, and it went on for a
good half a mile and I couldsee tree breaks eight or nine feet up
off off this trail, and thenthe remnants of the cast. What did
West teach you about the tree breaksand tree structures well, other than the

(27:33):
fact that he thought they were territorialmarkers, the fact the thing to look
for a course would be were theytwisted. It doesn't mean big foot,
but always twist them. But oneof the characteristics, as you know over
the years, is despite the size, would be the height off the ground.
You know they can reach up toten feet or more. And so
if this is at the nine footlevel and you find them consistently, and

(27:55):
they're supposed to point in the directionof traveled often and don't be twisted around
and around several times. That waswhat West told me. And that's where
he found these hair samples, wasup in the crotch of one of these
twists, and he gave it tome and I had it analyzed by the
Skeptical Inquirer. They didn't pay me, but they have a little article on

(28:17):
me, you know, happy showinga footprint, you know, the typical
thing. And they sent it backto me with a lab analysis and it
came back one as unknown, butalso came back as being very human,
and believe it or not, asbeing subject to quite a bit of weathering.
Well, that's interesting. This musthave been in the late nineteen eighties,
if I had to guess, isthat were correct? Yeah, that

(28:40):
sounds about right, of course.The telling thing there was the idea of
it being weathered when you were workingin the Blues and you you were,
you know, hanging out with Westand those people and the Blue Mountain Gang.
That you ever spend any time withBill Lowry, because I find him
to be like another Bob Titmus figurethat doesn't really get the credit he deserves
because he was so flying under theradar at the time. So did you

(29:00):
ever have a chance to meet withmister Lowry? Well, I did,
and as back to West and secondsaid, yeah, he did fill the
eclips by Paul. I mean wetalked about this that you know, West
reserved for some time. He waskind of known locally, you know,
as a big foot go to person. Paul comes in and then they started
having public get together as in themall. Maybe you knew about that.

(29:22):
I did. Yeah, I knowdar Addington very well and she's told me
a lot about those stories. Yeah. I felt badly for West because I
think it was kind of sidelined,you know, even kind of a different
character. He was very colorful,but I think he felt a bit outclassed
by, you know, by Paul, and I think he didn't have as
much of a chance to interact withthe public as he would have liked to
if Paul hadn't been there. Yeah, and of course Paul got those two

(29:45):
pieces of footage of sasquatches as well. And you know, visual components go
so far with the public nowadays,it seems so Yeah, they're basically basic
entertainment. Of course, Paul didvery well with that. As far as
Lowry goes, I never met him. I just and I respected him because,
as I remember, he was awarden or a law enforcement officer as

(30:06):
well. He's like some biologists.I guess he's either a warden or some
official in the in the Wildlife departmentin Washington there. And so the things
he's mentioned to me was or Italked to him on the phone was something
about actually seeing one and he wasflabbergassed at the sheer size of him.
He just said, you would notbelieve how big these are, he said,
I never would have imagined that theywould have been a huge when I

(30:26):
saw them. He was blown awayby their sheer size. Stay tuned for
more Bigfoot and Beyond with Clifton Bogo. We'll be right back after these messages.
So we've we've spoken a lot abouta lot of a lot of the
historical thing or some of them,not even a lot, actually just barely

(30:48):
the tip of the iceberg, aboutthe historical figures and things that you've been
involved in, but you are continuingyour research to this day. Tell us
about some of the more interesting thingsthat you've been able to encounter or hear
or see. I'm like, haveyou ever seen a sasquatch, for example,
like in the last thirty years orso, because my first exposure to
you was at that Bellingham conference backin what was that two thousand and four

(31:11):
or five or something like that,and I know that you just had gotten
those amazing vocalizations that I still thinkstand is some of the best vocalizations out
there at the time, and that'swhat you spoke about there. But certainly
you've seen so much, So tellus best about the highlights of the last
few decades. If you did.Yeah, sure, well, I'll just
say I've never seen one, andI don't know if that's what I call

(31:33):
the icing on the cake. It'dbe nice to say I did. That
doesn't prove a lot to me anybody. And you know, you may say
when maybe you don't see one stoppingat night. People have fleeting glimpses of
what they think they see, andthen as you know, they'll fantasize about
it. Sometimes they won't talk aboutit for months for years because it's out
of their comfort zone, and soby that time maybe they don't remember as

(31:56):
much. There's no doubt there's beentons of sightings we know of that,
but all the stuff I've seen frombigfoot poopy to the tracks as you know
I mentioned it, to twisted vegetation, to rock structures and stick structures,
all the calls the one coming upto the tap here a couple of weeks
ago. There's absolutely no doubt abouttheir bigfoot existing. And you know,

(32:20):
I hope they never catch it.So if I see one, I'll be
happy. If I don't, I'llprobably be just as happy. I've come
within twenty feet of seeing one,just because up at Bumping, Paul and
ever going one direction, and aguy came up from Texas Camp and it
was at a place for bigfoot crosses, and maybe you know of that spot
of bumping up along the main roadjust a couple hundred feet what would that

(32:44):
be south of Texas Camp, Californiacamp up there, and there's actually a
little place in the woods you canlook down and see a tunnel, and
evidently that's where the bigfoot crosses.And that particular evening as we are,
Paul, they went beyond it.A fellow came around the corner out of
the camp and later told us,well, a big foot just crossed behind

(33:07):
you and as you know, whatthey'll do, they'll wait until people go
beyond them. And he caught himby surprise when he walked out and he
saw the big foot. So yeah, I've been close to it. I've
never seen him, but the tracksI've found, some of the poop that
I think was unusual I've found.Did you read that, Scott animalist at
all? Well? Wait, wait, wait before you do what Scott,

(33:30):
I don't know anything about this.What are you what are you talking about?
Well, I've found several over theover the years, you know,
up in remote areas where I foundone pile that was eighteen inches in diameter
and probably at least a foot highup in the middle of nowhere. Bears,
you know, I can have thatpattern of eating somewhere, coming back
and pooping, And as you know, at picking in a orchards, they'll

(33:52):
go over and guzzle down stuff,hardly eating it. They'll come back and
all of a sudden they got totake a crap and it's off and with
a patter, and they'll go backto the same area. I've got one
are where there's eight piles of poopsaround this tree and it was clearly a
bear that did it. Some ofthem are huge, but this one is
in the middle of forest, there'snobody around, and it clearly looked like

(34:14):
a single deposit, not multiple deposits. And it was literally the size of
a huge dinner plate and eighteen insof I'm guessing, and probably a foot
high. So we found that backin the middle of nowhere. How much
did you pack out? If youhad, what'd you put it in?
I'll be honest at that point,I didn't pack any of it out.

(34:36):
But the second time I've got itin my freezer, I'm sure by now
it is long dead from freezer burn. But I'll put this very remote lake
off of the Pacific Crest Trail forPaul and I go. It's about a
seven and a half mile hike inand the last a beast hour and a
half it's completely off the trail.A hundred came running out of the years
ago. We said he couldn't takeit anymore. And we have been back

(34:59):
in the three times, and I'vegot two recording sessions where they come into
camp at least twelve times and onenight and it just showed up on my
tape recorder and you can hear themcoming in, you can hear them slap
my tent, and you can hearthem leave. That goes on for twelve
times, at least in one night. I'm sure they're juveniles, probably not

(35:22):
that grown ups, probably are watchingthem out of the forest. Probably be
juveniles just having fun. I didn'tlisten to that tape for two years thinking
nothing happened. So there's a lessonto be learned there. When I listened
to it, I was just blownaway. Within twenty minutes, I was
hitting the snack. As you know, as soon as they hear deep sleeping,

(35:43):
they'll come in, not before thattime often, And so you could
spend a week up there and thinkit was most of a wrang time in
the world, not knowing you hadbeen entertained up there, maybe several nights
in a row, and kind ofunsatisfying, but very revealing about bigfoot behave
here. Oh about the poopy wellup at this lake. I was up

(36:04):
higher coming back to the lake,and I found this pile of scat.
Now it wasn't huge, but itwas probably maybe it's a foot long.
It was gray, kind of agelatinous, quite gray material looking terry like
vegetation. I have no idea whatit was composed of. I didn't find
any animal matter in it. Itlooked like tutsie rolls. They had been

(36:25):
broken, and they were in aperfect line, like it was stacked Howardwood.
They all a straight line, noneof them overlapped each other. They
were stacked like potsie rolls, andthey all were stacked evenly. I've never
seen that. I brought it home, talked to several bear experts. We

(36:45):
talked about wolf, we talked aboutbear. Oh, we knew it wasn't
elk. They they had no answerfor what I had found. So I
don't know what it is. Ifound the same thing up at at this
particular lake I mentioned Eastern Monroe.I found these out the same kind of
a bunch of poop on the roadin two places. So I got it

(37:08):
here by this time. I don'tknow who could analyze it, but so
I still got that. Well thereyou know about the DNA study with Darby
or cut through the North Carolina University. Right, that's free. All you
have to do is fill out upthing online and send it to them and
they will get back to you guaranteed. This is the first university sponsored one
ever, and they guarantee you willget the results back and with whatever it

(37:32):
is. They're not looking for bigfootstuff, even though they kind of are.
We had Darby on as I yesa few weeks ago. They're looking
at unknown samples in an effort toidentify what they are. You know,
and that's that's even better. That'sa perfect setup. You don't want someone
who's got a big foot by us, as you will know. And some
of the most fascinating books I've readhad nothing to do with their interest in

(37:53):
bigfoot, but just by the waythings that happened to them. So I
would trust those people more than somebodywith a preaching notion of what they're getting.
I'll talk to Paul because we've gotquite a few hair samples. I've
got the scatch sample, and Iwould love to send it to them.
It's free. It's absolutely free anduniversity sponsored. And I encourage anybody,

(38:15):
especially you, because who have abacklog of samples, who has a backlog,
to send stuff to them, becausethey're raring to go and they're waiting
for samples to work on. Well, you just send me the information and
I'll be happy to We will dothat now the other sideline, I have
one thing lead another. But speakingof museums in general, and includes museums

(38:37):
in India, museums here in otherplaces, who are sent remains of primates.
In some cases up in India,as you know, they sent to
remains of what clearly had been aYETI to a museum there and they never
heard anything again. Now I'm tellingpeople this, you can go up and

(38:59):
beat the wood forever. Go lookin the dusty halls or the museum,
go to the basement if they'll letyou. And I think we're going to
find a wealth of evidence on whatwe're looking for in these museums. They
get things that they're unclassified then whatthey are. They may know what they
are, and they simply lead themdown there because they don't have a rational

(39:21):
explanation for them. And if they'lllet you in, I think you could
get a wealth of information that wouldhelp us a lot. Stay tuned for
more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff andBogo. We'll be right back after these
messages. So, John, you'vebrought a number of audio recordings to the

(39:45):
podcast here to share with our listeners. Yeah, I've been in contact with
your partner, Paul. Paul Gracihas been a guest on our show before,
and he was telling me he wasso excited about these recordings you got
that you just got like a coupleof weeks ago from Wenacci National Forest.
Can you tell us about that?We'll play that well. We went to
this spot that had a long historyof stuff going on. We camped out

(40:07):
within twenty feet of a road thatgoes through there. We were there for
a day and a half and onlytwo cars drove by an entire time,
showing you how remote it is orhow unused it is. We got cozy
in our sleeping bags, and thenext thing we know, we hear there's
big, huge rocks just outside ofour tent. Paul and I wake up
and sleepily say to each other,oh man, did you hear that?

(40:29):
Oh yeah, what do you supposeit was? By? Blah blah blah
blah. We went back to bed. We woke up knowing nothing else but
that. I took my tape recorderhome and gee whiz, I started playing
it and within about half an hourbefore all that took place, you can
hear this boom boom boom, boom, boom boom, boom boom, boom

(40:49):
boom, right up to our tent. Right up to our tent. We
have a lot of rocks and pinecones or something being thrown at our tent
during the time we were there.You can hear him clunk plunk hitting our
tent during and after the big stompinggoes on, and then you can hear
a big moving noise outside of thetent. Uh. And that's when we
woke up. And so that wouldbe the one when they're coming into camp.

(41:22):
M M. So that was thefirst thing that happened, and then

(41:59):
sometimes during the night. And nowPaul tells me he has two more of
those long calls. Are they callin a distance that David Ellis brought up
and amplified and it's been looped threetimes? And so I guess that's the
next one you have. Okay,so these are these will be three the
same call looped three different times byDave Ellis, Like he's the guy who

(42:20):
analyzed it and made it loop.But this was recorded the same night as
the previous recording we just heard.Yeah, yeah, right, okay,
very good. Let's let's sake alisten. Yeah, no question about that

(42:57):
one. Then yeah, I thinkit's it's very good, and we might
have some more to add to that. David Ellis told me it's one of
the more interesting recordings he has becausehe said there's so much going on.
He thinks there's a language it's beingspoken in there. We have the growls.
He thinks at one point it's imitatingmy snoring sounds that I heard,

(43:20):
and they were much deeper and lower, So they're imitating me while I'm snoring,
and then when I'm turning back andforth having a rough night of it,
that they're taking advantage of that andmaking a lot of noise in the
background. So he's got a tonof things going on during that particular evening
when and Paul and are concerned bythe way about going back up there because

(43:43):
a lady disappeared. I guess wetalked. Maybe he talked about that.
No, Yeah, this is ascary part about There was a lady from
the University of Washington, an olderlady. Gosh, she pries my age
makes her ancient, right, Soshe's up there and this has been several
years ago, and she parked rightacross where we spent the night and she
was out. I think in thefall picking mushrooms, and she knew there.

(44:07):
If she'd been up there, shewasn't a stranger to the outdoors.
She disappeared without a trace and thennever found her, and Paul was involved
in the man hunt for her.The dogs traced her to a certain area
short distance away, and they lostit and nothing was found. There was

(44:28):
no indications of a struggle, noblood, no call marks, and nothing.
She just simply vanished. And sowhen we hear those aggressive sounds come
up to our car, up toour tamp, we're just kind of wondering
kind of what we're doing there,you know. Yeah, Paul told me
he won't go He says he's goingthere twenty years by himself, like no
words, he said, now hewill not go there alone anymore. Yeah,

(44:50):
No, we both agreed that wereand I think i'd recommend everybody,
of course, never go by herself. I used to go a lot by
myself when I was ignorant. Gettingolder now and I've had a good life.
If it ends, and you know, I had a lot happen,
but I don't want it to endthat way. And we know there's been
things are going on in the peninsulaI've got stories about another one, as

(45:12):
you know, about up at theborder of Canada, a horrible thing that
happened up there with a sasquatch.Yeah outliers, Yeah yeah. Why don't
we save that for the members sectionbecause I'd like to hear about those stories
because I'm advocate. I'm an advocate, and I've tried to say this as
much as possible that these are notyour forest friends. These are not,
you know, necessarily benign beings thatare, you know, looking out for

(45:36):
the good of humanity from you know, the the overseers in the sky,
you know, as they're often paintedby various people in the Bigfoot community.
These are wild animals and perhaps andI don't think they're aout the gid us.
I'm not saying that. I'm notsaying that they're they are they're evil
monsters and devils trying to get it. They are potentially very dangerous. They
are wild animals that are very humanlikein a lot of ways, which might

(45:59):
make them more dangerous in some ways. I don't think they're out to get
us, and as evidence, Ialways say, look around. If they
were out to get us, there'dbe very few of us left but I
do think there are probably some badapples out there and they should be treated
with the respect that you would givesomething like say a brown bear something like
that. And I would certainly agree. And the stories I have, which

(46:22):
are brief, you know me,I don't elaborate a lot, but the
two I know about repeating the publicis hard for me because I don't want
people to think every time they goout, they're going to disappear. And
yet when you hear these stories,if I know the area of which I
do know, I wouldn't go thereperiod. You always bring a shark cage.

(46:42):
Yeah, all right, you're init, not them. You know
exactly exactly who you're protected you well, number one, I guess. Well.
The other thing is we have torecognize we know nothing about the calls
we put out, at least mostlywhat are we saying to them. Number
two is we may be very closeto their heart land. They're going to
be stretched out if we get tooclose to them. We know none of

(47:05):
these things, and we can putourself right in harms way, migration routes
and things like that and not evenknow it. And so there's so much
we don't know. We could putourselves in harms away. Well, you
know, well, let's let's let'sperhaps maybe end this session and go onto
the member session. You can wecan hear about those stories and kind of
compare notes with some of the otherthings that we've heard about sasquatches being less

(47:29):
than friendly. All right, Well, John, thank you so much for
coming on and spending the last hourwith us. We're going to continue this
conversation in our members section in justa few minutes and everybody can listen to
that on Thursday. If you're amember, if you want to become a
member, he can go to Big, Bigfoot and Beyond podcast dot com and
hit the membership button and I'll tellyou all about it. But in the
meantime, thank you very much Johnfor being on the podcast with us.

(47:50):
We really do appreciate you sharing someof your experiences with us. Well,
thank you very much, Bobo,Cliff and Matt. It was a long
time getting on here, of thosewith it. It's been a couple of
years. I've been trying to getyou going, so yeah, thanks for
showing up, John, I know, no, no, thank you so
much for having me. Bobo.This has been nice training for me.
All right, well, cool,folks. That's John Andrews from Washington State.

(48:13):
He's got some ongoing stuff now.We're gonna hear more from him and
Paul. They got some stuff they'reworking on. We'll be bringing him back
on probably the next couple of months. But until then, you guys know
what to do out there, y'all. Keep it squatchy. Thanks for listening
to this week's episode of Bigfoot andBeyond. If you liked what you heard,

(48:36):
please rate and review us on iTunes, subscribe to Bigfoot and Beyond wherever
you get your podcasts, and followus on Facebook and Instagram at Bigfoot and
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